T O P

Toronto Star front-page design exacerbated division between readers. Greater care should have been taken

Toronto Star front-page design exacerbated division between readers. Greater care should have been taken

MikeMcMichaelson

The frontpage: https://i.imgur.com/zKNK6In.png The article: https://archive.is/1LkQA


rimjobbob42069

Thank you comment section, I scrolled through the link looking for the actual screen shot of the front page.


eskjnl

Looks accurate to me. No need to apologize to snowflakes.


EpistemicCircle

"Greater care should have been taken." Okay, so start here: don't weasel behind passive voice. Ya fucks.


cashrchek

I didn't see the original article, so I don't know... was it available to all or was it behind their paywall, because that likely prevented a lot of those 'readers' from actually seeing what was being said. The Star would do itself a favour by making all covid-related reporting free, otherwise this shit will just keep happening.


jbot84

If I'm not mistaken, I think all TSTAR articles are behind paywalls.


dassub

The layout belongs on r/crappydesign more than the content does, even if I don't typically agree with the Star's content.


canadian_eskimo

I wish no one harm to anyone but the division between vax and anti-vax is completely created by the anti-vax side and their abandonment of reason. Their ignorant struggle against the majority of regular folk who know when we all have to step up and protect each other and the vulnerable is dangerous and has an effect that ripples through the health care system. They scream about freedom yet are unable to see the box they are putting themselves in when they refuse to participate in a simple action that is supported by data and science. They are threatening the 'freedom" of everyone else by exposing themselves to the risk of another variant which could destroy the progress that the people who have been vaccinated have made. I don't want them to die, I want them to be isolated in a way that helps them realize that "freedom" is just two shots away. Edit: Feast your eyes on the anti-vax response in this thread. Breathtaking conspiracy references. Second edit: thank you to the mods for removing the personal attack posted by someone who went through a great deal of my posting history which referenced an unrelated health issue I face. I honestly could have easily reduced their bizarre reference to ashes but I appreciate not being doxed.


Swimming-Fee-2445

This is exactly what I experienced at a bbq last night. The anti vaccine ladies started to accuse us vaccinated folks of being the ones who are creating the delta variant, that we are the ones who are putting everyone at risk by shedding the vaccine and we are the stupid guinea pigs who are being used by big pharma and so on. So I spoke up and said “do you really think this is Big Pharma’s plan? To kill off a bunch of people with a vaccine? What for?” And I was told “they’ll never tell you - the mainstream media is keeping you in the dark and manipulating you” to which I replied “so your alternative news sources aren’t manipulating you? You aren’t feeding their ad revenues and the algorithms with your articles?” It was a good discussion until one lady spoke up and said that the trackers in the vaccine and the magnets and the 5G are messing with our DNA and I realized I was speaking to some very ignorant and gullible people who believe only one side and whatever they said to me was bullshit. There really was no point in trying to come to a middle ground with them. I will just them live their lives happily believing bullshit, just don’t get me or my family sick.


JohnnyTurbine

If they're afraid of the vaccine destroying their DNA, just wait until they hear what UV radiation, industrial pollutants, and actual viruses do to you...


JohnnyTurbine

I think there's a certain possibility that the momentum of the anti-vaxx "side" is built up through astroturfing by the Republican party apparatus. I have no specific proof, other than the fact that the rhetoric, organizing and even specific participants seem identical to other manufactured wedge issues. (The climate change "debate," trans bathrooms, progressive school curricula, Canadian Trumpism.)


Drank_tha_Koolaid

I think a lot of it was started by Russia and became co-opted by the Republicans. They've been found at the center of many disinformation campaigns. Edit to add a couple links: https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2B0016 https://time.com/5948017/news-front-covid-19-information-war/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/us/politics/covid-vaccines-russian-disinformation.amp.html


JohnnyTurbine

I don't know if I believe that it's Russia specifically so much as it just seems intuitive that adversarial global powers would seek to undermine their competitors' public health campaigns. Your country becomes more economically competitive and looks better-administered by comparison. I'm sure there are many countries, large and small, which do this (particularly since they have the innovations of the Russians to style themselves after). I mean, the O'Toole campaign is being run by former Brexiteers, I think there is also relatively small subset of specialized propagandists who travel from place-to-place plying the misinformation trade.


kyara_no_kurayami

I wonder this too. I have a family member who started off angry at lockdowns, then became anti-vax (believes in a 5G conspiracy theory related to vaccines) and then mentioned how he it could have been at the Capitol in January, he would’ve been. This is a guy who was super anti-Trump before but has gone so far down the rabbit hole. There has to be an overlap.


DEEPFIELDSTAR

> I want them to be isolated in a way that helps them realize that "freedom" is just two shots away. And this coercion is exactly what causes the die hard ones to dig their heels in and will only strengthen their resolve in time. I have a few friends who havent taken a vaccine that I know for a fact were *planning* on doing so until the push for it became so intense. The speed and force in which this was rolled out is what made them fearful - and honestly I can't say I blame them in that regard, I'm not anti-vax but even I was taken back by how hard this is being pushed. So I'm not so sure this approach will help them realize. However the idea that you can guarantee an existence where you'll never be near, around or interact with people who may not have taken the vaccine is a pipe dream. You might be able to stop them from sitting in a restaurant but that's an extremely short sighted "solution" when come this fall we're going to be packed together in subways and grocery stores and other workplaces where its not mandated. Society has to learn to accept this inevitability. The same way you never knew who took the flu shot, eventually you'll have to accept that about the covid vaccine. And let's not even get into boosters. If the rumours are true where you'll need one every X amount of months - are you going to know if everyone around you is up to date? Will you worry if they're a week behind on their booster? At some point this approaches the realm of mild insanity. Something to think about.


mnkybrs

> I have a few friends who havent taken a vaccine that I know for a fact were *planning* on doing so until the push for it became so intense Imagine being an adult and having this attitude. Grow up. Christ, do you also have friends who would have gotten vaccinated but it became too mainstream?


DarkWasp14

This person clearly needs need help because they’re delusional and incapable of accepting reality. To anyone else, report, block and move on. You will never get anywhere with these people and they don’t need be coddled like infants. They’re grown ass adults.


ChaseWegman

LOL that's not what that statement means. A sudden large marketing campaign is suspicious. It makes a person question why someone is trying so hard to sell me something. It makes a person wonder if the other side knows something they don't. It causes suspicion of the motives. These instincts could serve quite useful in other situations.


mnkybrs

> It makes a person question why someone is trying so hard to sell me something. Were you asleep for the last 18 months?


EastYorkButtonmasher

Seriously. We have almost 30k dead Canadians. They don't need to sell shit to me, that number alone does it.


AhmedF

> but even I was taken back by how hard this is being pushed. Because it's killing people for fuck sakes.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


canadian_eskimo

Fuck ‘em. Passports please.


Useyourhead6ix

You went from "I don't wish harm to anyone" to "fuck em" really fast.


Victawr

That's not harm


ChaseWegman

Yeah their true colors are coming out. This about people punishing a scape goat.


LR48

> Fuck ’em. Passports please. LOL and you started this by going on a rant about separation. I wonder why…


canadian_eskimo

You don't understand? I can't help you.


LR48

I do understand. It’s statements like yours that have allowed us to get to this point. Groups of individuals virtue signaling on Reddit with hopes of upvotes and karma.


DEEPFIELDSTAR

Yeah sure. You can take that stance. Until they're beside you in a place where you don't need papers. And then they're kinda like "sorry bud, fuck *you*."


canadian_eskimo

"And then they're kinda like "sorry bud, fuck you." So their revenge is to make me sick? Something wrong here and it ain't with me.


DarkWasp14

I’ll repeat this again: “He believed driving drunk on the wrong side of the highway with no seatbelt was standing up for his freedoms.” That is what these people sound like. I’m not being nice to people who don’t care if they kill me, my loved ones, or anyone else. We aren’t the ones in the wrong here.


canadian_eskimo

It’s as if they missed part of the conversation but still ride in like a bull with their “opinion”. If it wasn’t so dangerous it would be amusing.


DEEPFIELDSTAR

> So their revenge is to make me sick? Huh? lol Literally not what I said at all. I'm saying they will be as indifferent as you are with your "fuck em" stance. And you'll have to learn to accept this because you'll never vaccinate 100% of the population nor will you ever be able to know who is or isn't vaccinated in every situation from here until the end of your days.


JohnnyTurbine

This is literally what happens right now. It's almost as if our participation in society is a contract which includes both privileges **AND OBLIGATIONS TO THE WELFARE OF GREATER WHOLE**.


ChaseWegman

You forgot about rights.


29da65cff1fa

Glory to Arstotzka


entaro_tassadar

The difference is people know they'll benefit from wearing masks on the subway and in grocery stores for years to come (the basic flu has basically been eradicated). Whereas with the passport you'll feel more comfortable in-door dining and in theatres eating and generally being maskless.


JohnnyTurbine

Or we could use some form of state coercion to force them to take the vaccine... the same way state coercion is used to mandate drivers' licenses, birth certification, and the use of money as a format to exchange goods and services. And also to enforce all manner of other laws that keep at safe at the expense of absolute freedom (pollution dumping laws, speed limits, any form of legislation with a financial or penal consequence attached). It is in fact very normal for the state to coerce all kinds of actions and inactions, and it is only this apparent departure from normalcy (or perhaps the stick being pointed at a hitherto-privileged group of people) which brings alarm.


ChaseWegman

You should look up rights.


JohnnyTurbine

Which rights should I look up?


charade_scandal

The lack of discussion about boosters by people who are for mandates is telling. There are plenty of people who are like 'so you tell your employer once about some medical stuff who cares!?' that are (maybe) not thinking long-term.


AhmedF

> but even I was taken back by how hard this is being pushed. This is pure /r/ownthelibs stupidity.


[deleted]

[удалено]


xxavierx

Removed, misinfo — please provide source on 4th shot claims.


dobrapizza

Is it okay to dangle freedom in front of someone? I too think everyone should be vaccinated but freedom shouldn’t be treated like a carrot.


canadian_eskimo

That's not what is happening. Again, No vaccine, no access. Fuck 'em.


dobrapizza

To private events sure. Anyone can decide who to let in. But to argue they should be jailed based on a choice they make, no matter how uninformed, leads to you being jailed one day because someone doesn’t agree with how you think. Basically, to have a functioning society we need to accept the risks of living with others. Also, since there are many parts of the world where vaccination is not even a thing or possible, we’ll end up getting variants from there. It’s futile to try and isolate to the point where variants don’t come into the country.


canadian_eskimo

Where did I say they be jailed? Mocked and ostracized, yes. Edit: they don’t think “different”, they are ill informed and getting their information from rumour and here say.


dobrapizza

“Isolated in such a way that they will realize freedom is just two shots away” so jailed or freedoms limited until they agree with majority right? This, in a society that apparently values diversity??


canadian_eskimo

Go away, clown.


dobrapizza

So you don’t get 100% support on every part of your post and you default to name calling? Why post anything if you don’t care for feedback or discussion and only expect people to coddle your ego?


ChaseWegman

You're going to be disappointed tomorrow.


canadian_eskimo

What’s your point? Edit, oh wait! You don’t have a point. You’re a damn anti-vaxx moron! Absolutely no consideration for others. No empathy. Don’t waste my time.


genfail123

Anti vaccination protests happen outside of private businesses who have chosen to mandate vaccination certificates for entry in to their privately owned businesses. Who wants to restrict freedom?


EconomistOfDeath

So anti-vaxxers want people to respect their choices but don't respect the choices of business owners? That's a pretty big double standard.


dobrapizza

Post says “I want them to be isolated in such a way that helps them realize that “freedom” is just two shots away”


mnkybrs

Sure. Be a responsible citizen and you can participate fully in society. Drive like an asshole, and you lose the freedom to drive a car. Be a public health risk and a burden on our healthcare system and lose the freedom to be around the public and put yourself in a position to be a burden.


dobrapizza

Well, given that driving is a privilege and it a human right, this is a false equivalency. So not a good analogy. It also doesn’t translate because driving like an ass is something you do and not getting vaccinated(or just not disclosing vaccination status) is something you people opt out on


[deleted]

[удалено]


canadian_eskimo

Your tin-foil hat might be on a little tight.


DEEPFIELDSTAR

The notion that fear and bad news is exploited to generate clicks and profit isn't a conspiracy theory it's pretty much the foundation of how the media makes their money. This was 'news 101' long before Covid existed.


CarpenterRadio

That’s not why they accused them of conspiratorial thinking. They didn’t once say that media doesn’t have a vested interested in stirring up conflict. They mocked the insinuation that people who dislike or hold disdain for anti-vaxxers only do so because of the media and not because they’re the ones holding us back and making things worse by any and every relevant, quantifiable metric.


Useyourhead6ix

It's easier to insult rather than debate...especially when you live in fear.


canadian_eskimo

If you're going to draw in ridiculous connections to a conspiracy then I will mock you. If you had a sense of humour perhaps your feelings wouldn't be so hurt.


Useyourhead6ix

Media selling fear is a conspiracy? Wow.


DEEPFIELDSTAR

This sub always breaks new grounds in amazing me with just how little they understand about how the world works.


Wonderful-Blueberry

Anything they didn’t learn in school or hear on mainstream media is a “conspiracy.”


DEEPFIELDSTAR

It reads as satire but it honestly appears this way sometimes.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


LR48

Freedom isn’t only 2 shots away. The 2 shots will now provide you the potential option of being able to go into a restricted capacity restaurant, mall, shop only if you have the papers to show this proof. You still have to wear a mask, and businesses can’t be operate 100% capacity so I don’t know what freedoms you’re talking about. The segregation is encouraged by the vaccinated when ultimately both sides should be banding together and realizing how unfree we are. Go to Florida, that’s free, no mask and no restrictions however you can wear a mask if you want. All of this nonesense we have to go through, the anger amongst individuals, friendships ruined, our pm delivering angry toned speeches and to think we are no where near the freedom of Florida after all of this. I’m vaxxed but anti passport


canadian_eskimo

Florida: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/28/us/florida-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccines-variant.html Not a great example. Edit: More Florida: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/florida-covid-cases.html


LR48

I understand the circumstances when 63% of people are fully vaccinated. However, with all this passport talk and your statement that this is freedom, will you refuse to wear a mask in the mall? Technically everyone in the building is vaccinated so there shouldn’t be any issues. Are you going to stand up for business owners and question the government as to why they still can’t operate at 100% capacity and still have to force restrictions with everyone vaccinated? Technically the vaccine was the key to freedom


cashrchek

No, *theoretically* the vaccine was the key to freedom... until a more dangerous variant emerged at the same time large swaths of stubborn, misinformed people refused to get it because they value their political tribalism more than facts.


LR48

So this is really never going to end, so why have we allowed the government to control things as much as they have, COVID Zero is non existent. With the vaccinated carrying the equivalent viral load as the unvaccinated this will never be over yet here we are allowing more restrictions without a push back.


Cedex

> *With the vaccinated carrying the equivalent viral load as the unvaccinated* this will never be over yet here we are allowing more restrictions without a push back. Do you want to explain that bit for us?


9eremita9

Here’s some reading. Scary if further study bears this out…[Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3897733)


Cedex

Did you read it? Not really all that scary. First, the claim that vaccinated having higher viral load was a comparison of vaccinated people with breakthrough Delta variant against original strain infected people. The only conclusion that really can be made is that Delta is really bad. Second, those vaccinated health care workers who tested positive, "All recovered uneventfully." Actually, I take that back. It's scary, for those unvaccinated. Going to have a tough time with the Delta variant if the viral load is higher than the original strain.


9eremita9

It is scary to me at least that the viral load is high even fully vaccinated. And that these cases were not community spread. More infections means greater chance for mutations, from what I gather. Difficult to see how we get ahead of it.


escargotcultist

Florida is on its way to 30k daily new cases exactly because of this stance. There is nothing to celebrate here. People are dying, doctors and nurses are exhausted and the variants will keep grabbing a foothold everywhere a portion of the population refuses to get vaccinated due to notions of personal freedom or whatever insane conspiracy theory they dredge up from Facebook, 4chan or twitter. You don't get to smoke a cigarette wherever you want because of the greater public health good. We all decided to say fuck your freedom in that case , and very soon the same is gonna happen with Covid vaccines


LesB1honest

Florida is not a flex. They are being decimated by this virus. A few days ago, they were running low on oxygen required to treat Covid patients. Which actually proves that masks and vaccine mandates work. States that lifted safety measures are the ones now seeking funding and assistance from other health units from other states.


LR48

Did I say they were a flex? No. I said they are open, “free” as OP referred to. Manadatory Vaccinations and vaccine passports will still not allow us to be anywhere near free or, Florida open. We are encouraging vaccine passports, we are encouraging segregation and divide with literally no benefit or difference than how things are now.


beef-supreme

Who says there's no benefit? BC saw vaccination rise by over 200% as passports were announced.


LR48

But what happens after we get to the coveted 90%? Vaccine passports gone? Restaurants, bars, clubs, sports venues get to operate at 100% capacity? No mask mandates in malls stores etc? That’s where I’m saying there’s no benefit. In Quebec you Need a passport to enter a non essential business, those businesses, although all of their patrons are vaccinated are not allowed to operate at 100% capacity. Technically if we go into malls once a passport comes we should be able to not be forced to wear a mask. But we will still have to, so there’s no upside to forcing things like a passport unless the people who have to enforce these things are benefitting.


beef-supreme

The upside is no more general lockdowns, we hope No one can predict the future. The more vaccinations the less chance of overwhelming hospitals. It's really that simple. .


geckospots

Also hopefully no further extremely contagious variants.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


Reacher-Said-N0thing

I love how so few people read the Toronto Star print edition that they had to write an article about their controversy because nobody else would


aboatoutontheocean

Enough people read the print edition that they received 4,000 complaints about this issue. They're writing about the controversy to take responsibility for their mistake, not to report on it.


to_j

You need to learn the role of a public editor.


EconomistOfDeath

I have a couple anti-vaxxers on my FB and they latched on to this front page so quickly. It was clearly evident that they didn't read the story at all and were just spreading memes. The PPC also used this meme as a political tool to further their agenda.


PolitelyHostile

The Star shouldnt be responsible for idiots not reading the article. But its kind of expected I guess


EconomistOfDeath

Exactly, I didn't even waste my time arguing with them after I pointed out that the article was to promote empathy. My favourite post from them was a table from a journal article that they used to point out the harms of vaccine on fertility. However, if one simply read the summary of the same journal article it concludes that they couldn't find any risks to fertility. Guess that there's no cure for willful ignorance.


carolinemathildes

Yeah, "boohoo" is right. I don't give a shit that anti-vaxxers feel bad or left out or abandoned. This whole "I don't trust vaccines but maybe I'd be more willing to get them if I was felt welcomed and understood" schtick is bs, it's not my job to cater to idiots. They're liars. Not just to themselves, but to everyone. They don't want the vaccine, they don't care about the vaccine, but by framing it as this "divide" where vaccinated people are unsympathetic and mean, they get to blame *us* for their stupidity. "Oh, I'd be vaccinated by now but vaccinated people don't like me." No, you wouldn't, gtfo.


JohnnyTurbine

>This whole "I don't trust vaccines but maybe I'd be more willing to get them if I was felt welcomed and understood" schtick is bs, **it's not my job to cater to idiots.** It's not our job to do *any of this shit.* The government keeps dropping the ball on public awareness and enforcement, and keeps leaving regular people holding that ball as if we don't have actual jobs or families to attend to...


goodstuff10

Yeah we gotta stop babying and catering to a minority of people who don’t care about the wellness of the collective.


DarkWasp14

I’m also sick and tired of having to placate grown ass adults who have access to the same reality and information as everyone else. They’re spoken about as if they’re toddlers whose brains haven’t developed yet and they need parental guidance. They literally don’t GaF if they infect and kill people, why is the rest of society supposed to continue being nice to them like a grandma chastising a child?


Pigeonofthesea8

It makes them feel persecuted which amplifies their sense of righteousness


Taizong_Tang

Only one side is saying that people should be subject to social, economic and/or political coercion to take an action they don’t want. You can disagree with their decision, I do, but be honest with the fact that what you want is the state (in concert with businesses) to compel them to make decisions about their body they feel uncomfortable about. I agree people don’t need your empathy, but for your own sake I think the world becomes more understandable, and less rage inducing, if you can understand what drives these behaviours. You can feel what you want, but this “friend-foe” dynamic is leading people to indulge in really, really ugly attitudes (“anti-vaxxer’s shouldn’t get icu beds” “anti-vaxxers should lose govt. benefits”) that they would easily identify as socially harmful in any other context.


timbgray

Regardless, I hope the sentiment conveyed by the tweets and survey are truly representative of a prevailing consensus.


MannerKnife

It probably isn’t a prevailing consensus


greensandgrains

I kinda get the instinct, but why? I personally believe everyone choosing not get vaxxd is stupid af, but I don't want them to die from COVID, that's just cruel. On an more immediate level, how would you respond to being bullied into changing your mind about something that you believe in? I can't imagine that sentiments like this are going to change minds.


timbgray

At this point incentives, not sentiments are the only lever to increase vax penetration. Vaccine passports may help in this regard. I don’t wish wish suffering per se for anyone, but I do wish for a more robust connection between behaviour and consequences. I’m entitled to believe whatever I want, but as soon as that belief is actualized into behaviour that negatively impacts others, my beliefs are no longer sufficient justification. “Back in the day” the policy goal was to “flatten the curve”. Vaccinations are, at this point, the best way to do that. Unfortunately policy has shifted to delaying opening to accommodate the vax hesitant.


greensandgrains

Oh, I completely agree that we shouldn't be pandering to these people. As privileged/lucky as I feel to have been able to work remote and limit contact, etc, etc. over the last 18 months, I'm going bananas living like this and it does ignite a bit of anger in me that we're being kept in this limbo/choosing where we can to keep ourselves and others safe, because anti-vaxxrs have such a hold on our government. I'm mean, even at the best of times, policy/opening has been half-assed and not really that interested in safety. re: behaviours and consequences. I just can't get past the reality that the people experiencing the consequences of anti-vaxxrs aren't necessarily the anti-vaxxrs themselves. Yes, vaccines reduce the possibility of being infected, but there're plenty of people who aren't vaccinated yet and not by choice (e.g., kids! and I don't believe for a second that they're "lower risk", especially with Delta). I worry that anti-vaxxrs will never be able to make the connection between their individual actions and the collective.


pizzapeach9920

You just made me realize , my friend group is split between vac and anti vax. The pro vax people’s jobs have shifted seamlessly to work from home while the anti vax group lost most of their work and relied on CERB. You would think the ones who lost their jobs would be MOST interested in getting the vaccine and going back to work like before? The opposite seems true.


Mr-ShinyAndNew

I work in software engineering and my whole industry went remote. Many of us have done well as our workplaces do e-commerce. But believe me we have our share of antivaxxers. There are antivax dentists, nurses, even doctors. 🤷‍♂️


greensandgrains

That is interesting. I kinda understand why folks who worked in shut-down industries would protest lockdowns, but you'd think if you were being exposed to the public and colleagues you'd want to be protected.


pizzapeach9920

I thought they would be the first to want the vaccine so everything can get back to normal (relatively)


klowryaintnosp0tup

I don't want them to die but I don't think they should get ICU beds over vaxxed covid patients or vaxxed non covid patients. Ivermectin and chill at home.


[deleted]

I don't see what the issue with this front page is.


EncartaWow

See, those are humans talking about other humans, but who have appeared to have forgotten that.


Babuiski

Would you sympathize with a group of people who advocated speeding? Would you sympathize if they crashed and burned to death? Or would that sympathy vanish the instant they crashed into a family and caused them to burn to death?


DEEPFIELDSTAR

> Would you sympathize with a group of people who advocated speeding? Where this argument breaks down is that driving alone is dangerous. You could be the best driver and obey all laws and you're still doing something that carries with it a certain amount of risk. I don't have to drive way above the speed limit for it to present risk to me and other drivers and pedestrians around me. But society *does* accept this risk and accept all automobile related deaths associated with it in order to allow people to commute this way. The idea that the only risk that exists is that of people breaking the rules is a false idea and lulls people into this idea that as long as everybody does *just* as they're told then we're all gonna be perfectly safe, which is almost laughable. I would compare somebody who knowingly has Covid and chooses not to isolate to a drunk driver or a reckless driver. Saying people who aren't vaccinated are as bad as drunk drivers is a bit of a stretch in my eyes.


iyamgrute

> Saying people who aren’t vaccinated are as bad as drunk drivers is a bit of a stretch in my eyes It’s a loose parallel, but it seems apt if you look at commonalities: - Safe, reasonable alternatives available (take a cab/get the vaccine) - Purposeful decision to put others at nonzero risk of serious injury or death (of car accident/of virus exposure) - Perceived culpability for the negative outcomes, should they happen (regardless of intent, the result is considered at fault) There’s ample precedent for vaccination for population health. Otherwise we’d probably still be living with polio and smallpox. There’s really not a lot to argue about here and I think unvaxxed people (in the “antivax” sense) are ignorant, morally wrong, selfish, or all three. PS I don’t think people should be forced medical procedures; rather, they must be vaxxed to participate in certain settings (crowds, stores, gyms) as a matter of safety. If that inconveniences them well that’s the push/pull between individual rights and others’ rights (in this case, reasonable risk reduction to protect from viral exposure).


Taizong_Tang

The “non-zero risk” is where I take issue. This is an extremely high burden which we don’t apply anywhere else. Why haven’t we mandated flu vaccines? Transmitting the flu to someone who is immunocompromised definitely has non-zero risk of serious injury. The same is true of anyone who ever walked around / went to work with a cold. And like the comment you’re responding to above says, the same is definitely true for any driving drunk or sober. What I’m pushing back on isn’t even govt. mandate, because as you said the govt. doesn’t need to mandate it if businesses apply pressure independently. It’s the unquestioned attitude that not getting the vaccine is an unacceptable risk, of an entirely different category than many other things people do all the time, and requiring unique levels of social coercion.


DEEPFIELDSTAR

> Why haven’t we mandated flu vaccines? Exactly. And the typical response to this is usually "Covid is worse" - but it doesn't matter because even if Covid is worse the flu *still* kills many many people every year. Yet we were never too concerned about it and never mandated the flu shot anywhere outside of healthcare settings and even there it wasn't a strict mandate by any comparison to what's happening now. We also never shamed anybody or blamed people for being sick. I've caught countless colds from people in my life and never once was the thought of anger towards them even a blip in my mind.


iyamgrute

> I’ve caught countless colds from people in my life and never once was the thought of anger towards them even a blip in my mind You’re welcome to your response to getting sick, but so are others. I’ve told off people for bringing sick children to social gatherings and getting others sick as a result. There have been arguments at my workplace over people coming to work sick and getting others sick with immunocompromised family at home. Paid sick days were also an issue prior to the pandemic. My point being that there’s a cultural/social element to this that’s not homogeneous (and wasn’t before the pandemic either)


iyamgrute

> The “non-zero risk” is where I take issue. To be clear, I used this term deliberately because it’s a point we can agree on - the risk of illness/death due to covid is “nonzero.” IMO the crux of a lot of the conflict is whether this nonzero risk is *trivial, reasonable, or serious* and whether the mitigations for this risk are reasonable. > This is an extremely high burden which we don’t apply anywhere else. This is where I disagree - I used “nonzero” as a neutral term but your underlying implication is that the risk is *trivial.* Straight up, IMO the individual and population risk of covid is in fact *serious* enough to warrant mandatory vaccination for certain activities (at least during the active pandemic); also IMO, while not trivial, the vaccine is a *reasonable* mitigation. If people don’t want to get vaxxed to go to a restaurant(for example), that is their choice and there are alternatives. Just like people who choose to drink don’t have a mandate to drive anyway (and there’s nothing wrong with drinking and getting a ride/walking home/etc as an alternative). As for the flu, a) there are strong recommendations to get vaccinated seasonally, b) the flu vaccine is less efficacious than the covid vaccines because the flu is an endemic disease with multiple strains, and c) pandemic flu might have very different vaccine requirements than seasonal flu. > requiring unique levels of social coercion Others have a right to hold their own opinions and negative backlash can be a part of having unpopular/contrarian/controversial and/or … backward… opinions/stances Edit: autocorrect put “motivations” instead of “mitigations”


Taizong_Tang

Why speeding? Why not, “would you sympathize with a group of people who advocated driving.” The risk of killing or injuring someone from transmitting COVID is probably closer to people who choose to drive at all, not just speed. The risk profile aside, these analogies don’t work. If the purpose is to evaluate the the anti-vax position you should at least find another case where someone is refusing to take an action, not just avoid one. Would you sympathize with someone addicted to drugs who refused to take methadone, even if being on drugs had a higher chance of injury towards oneself or others (eg impaired driving). Would you sympathize with someone who is struggling with a mental health issue refusing to take anti-psychotics even if their mental illness we’re correlated with higher chances of harm to self / others? And before you say, those aren’t the same. I know. But the principle at play here is that we think that people should be compelled (through govt., economic or social pressure) to take an action involving their body they don’t want. The case being made is that bodily autonomy is less of a priority than social health. Which is a totally fair case to make. But I would encourage people to pressure test their beliefs with actually analogous situations (which Im guessing are probably less comfortably clear).


MustardClementine

"The case being made is that bodily autonomy is less of a priority than social health." This is exactly why I am vehemently opposed to vaccine passports, even though I am fully vaccinated. Think of what this precedent could mean.


DEEPFIELDSTAR

You're already starting to get a picture of what's to come with Isreal stating how 6 months after your most recent dose you're no longer considered vaccinated. Fauci suggesting boosters every 5 months. For how long? For life? They're turning your life into a subscription service where your compliance passports will be revoked if you don't keep up with exactly what drugs they tell you to take and when they tell you to take them. This is a frightening path to tread down regardless of how in favour of vaccines you are.


aboatoutontheocean

But children are already required to be vaccinated against several other diseases in order to attend school, and travellers already have to receive certain vaccines to go to certain countries. Why is this suddenly such an outrage? Unvaccinated people are a genuine danger to society (not counting those who can't get it for medical reasons).


Taizong_Tang

Are kids required to get the same vaccine every eight months? Can they not enter stores or restaurants if they aren't vaccinated? Imagine you or your kid were required to get a flu shot every 8 months, with a vaccine so new that they allow mixing of different types of it, had several versions pulled (AZ and J&J) due to side effects, and only received FDA approval conditional on trials that will still be ongoing for several years. You don't think that reasonable people might have objections to that? Listen, I hate talking about this because I know full well how I sound. I'm fully vaccinated, and have always gotten my flu vaccine. Personally I've never had any fears around them and I think the development of the COVID vaccine was an incredible feat of modern science. But the rapid, and aggressive consensus-making around vaccination as not only a requirement for civic participation but a determinant of moral worth has been unsettling to say the least.


DEEPFIELDSTAR

Well said.


PJTORONTO

It was pretty clear on even casual inspection that these quotes were samples of online sentiment towards people who are unvaccinated, and not the Stars view. The Star did not advocate this position they just reported it. This whole "controversy" smacks of manufactured outrage....moving on...


Slouchy87

I didn’t mind it


whiskeytab

lol good on the star for creating that front page... this is literally the overwhelming consensus from everyone i know in real life. there is no sympathy left for anti-vax clowns in the general population anymore and nor should there be. if that hurts their feelings then maybe they should take the fuckin hint.


BlackBerryClassico

This virus isn’t fair guys!


Dongucci69

We are indoctrinated to choose left or right, blue or red, liberal or conservative. What about human beings who are on the fence? Who can’t trust or digest all the contradictory media surrounding the vaccine? I’m not against vaccines. I am against being rushed to make decisions that I don’t feel comfortable making right now. I shouldn’t be classified or downgraded to a second class citizen.


9delta9

So what are you waiting for?


BlackBerryClassico

All they need is your empathy, sympathy, compassion, understanding, undivided attention, and maybe some change for a coffee. Not much. Just give it to them they deserve it.


Neptunedr3w

Common sense like this is denied to you because people fear and feel the need to be on one side of the fence or another.


Jazzlike-Pea8169

Piece of garbage journalism rag


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]