Dukat finally tells Kira the truth
By - Abe_Bettik
This works too well.
Labeling Jim Chief O'Brien at the last second got me
It makes sense because Kira carried his kid later in the show
True in both shows. Sorry for spoiling but yeah 🤰
Also because after she finds out about her mom she totally goes off on him in ops. If anyone's the one caught in the crossfire, it's him.
>0:18 Gul Dukar "It's okay (that I banged your mom)"
Haha, it won't get even better than this
>0:26 Chief O'Brien (suffering)
Haha, I was wrong
It was supposed to be Nerys that Dukat had the fling with, but Nana Visitor shot that idea down when it got pitched to her. Then Ira Steven Behr came back and was like... "okay, we'll have it be your mom then."
Good call. I think it not only helped keep it from unnecessary drama but also really added to her character development from the militant “nationalist” to a more well rounded person. Loved her arch.
Nana Visitor said while being interviewed in What We Left Behind that she would have been interested in her character having a romantic relationship with a cardassian, just not one played by Marc Alaimo, haha.
I’d say that eventually her relationship with the Cardassians as a whole was intimate. Like the Klingons and the Federation at the end, victory was had...she got to see the Cardassians suffer in a way that the Kira we knew in the pilot would revel in...instead she tried to console Garak and may have felt so much but revelry certainly wasn’t it.
I love her relationship with Garak in the final arc (platonic of course, we know where Garak's true love lies). Garak obviously respects the hell out of her, and slowly she starts to come around as they work together more.
Ah man, I was hoping for a Gul Macet love story with Kira...
Kira/Damar would have been kind of cute if she could forgive him for killing Ziyal.
This is beautiful
Not started DS9 yet, what did Gal Dukat do?
I'll tell you what he hasn't done - inspired the people of Bajor to build him a statue. And he is sore about that
I'm sure the Resistance had some songs about him.
You really just want to see this episode without spoilers, trust me.
What episode is it?
I think it was called "wrongs darker than death or night'
It's late in the series. But you have to know the history between these two characters to appreciate any of it, so you don't want to skip ahead.
You're in the wrong sub if you haven't seen DS9 yet. Get away from these spoilers! And go enjoy the second best Star Trek series ever made!
For some of us, it is the best! No rancor here though.
The Rancor is from a different franchise entirely.
Which one’s the best? TNG?
Is it really that good?
Not particularly, but there are a few strong episodes, like the one which explores Spock's childhood.
Ooh. What season / episode is that?
S1E2 - Yesteryear
No lol it's not bad per say, especially if you're a fan of TOS. Nothing like Lower Decks, which I'm enjoying, but it plays out more like a real Star Trek. It's pretty short and on Netflix, give it a try!
Hmmm. I'll have to get creative...it's not on Netflix in my region.
Idk if I’m getting whooshed here, but TAS is considered god awful lol.
I don't think I'd say God awful.
Unlike regular trek, which was an all ages program, TAS is much more geared to children. I watched it when I was a kid and I loved it. There's a couple of reallly good episodes in there.
Sorry, I guess I shouldn’t say god awful lol. Just poor in comparison to the themes of the better trek shows.
But I've heard people talk great things about LD. So I'm not sure exactly.
TNG 4 Lyfe
Well you see, when the General in charge of the military occupation of a country and a sex slave from that country love each other very much...
Colossal Cardassian 1984
Damn, now I want a 'The Office' themed episode about life on Deep Space Nine or a whole series reenacting 'The Office'. That episode where they talked about how Bashir as a person for him to become Starfleet's first holographic doctor, doesn't count.
Just rewatched this episode last week. Such a creepy dick move when dukat called her to tell her the truth.
wait wait did dukat bang kira’s mom??? why don’t i remember this wtf
Yeah one episode begins with Gul dukat ringing up Kira on her mother’s birthday just to tell her they banged and then hanging up
Happy cake day u/coldestshark p.s I fucked your mom, alright see ya’
It's effed up. [https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Wrongs\_Darker\_Than\_Death\_or\_Night\_(episode)](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Wrongs_Darker_Than_Death_or_Night_(episode))
It has some crazy logic as well.
>Kira: I'm gonna do some time travel.
>Sisko: LOL NO.
>Kira: I promise not to change anything.
>Sisko: Ok then.
>Kira: My mom was a collaborator. :(
>*mom is repeatedly sexually abused by Dukat*
>Kira: Bad mom! How could you???
Really messed up episode.
Yup, I don't understand this episode at all, it's so cringey.
The time travel is contrived in the extreme and is never used again. And Kira basically plans to murder her own mother for being a victim of sex abuse. I don't know what the writers were thinking.
I enjoyed the episode. I think it helps to remember that in the 1990s, the "Me Too" movement hadn't happened yet, the term "sexual assault" was defined by the use of physical force, and "consent" was a black and white term. (I'm not saying this is a good thing; I am glad we have given the issues more thought and nuance, I am simply stating that is is where Society was in the 1990s.)
Take, for instance, the treatment of women who slept with Nazi invaders in France; they were ostracized, beaten, their heads shaved: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMMGDQXRie8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMMGDQXRie8). Nowadays I think they would be given counseling and support.
I think the episode does a great job of showing the initial outrage someone might have towards such women, before diving into the deeper motives and ultimately showing that it's a complex situation. I think episodes like this helped *push* the definition of "consent" from where it was in the 1990s, to where it is today.
I don't think the episode/writers ever take a stance on "this is justified" or "this is wrong," and simply show why people might feel either way, especially where family is concerned.
Kira Nerys, in particular, has never been "The Voice of Goodness and Truth," that, say, the TNG bridge crew are. She's a complicated person who has done a lot of bad things in her life, some of which she regrets, some she doesn't, and some she isn't even sure about. This falls well into that gray area. Sure, she can see why someone might become Gul Dukat's concubine, but not *her own mother.*
> Take, for instance, the treatment of women who slept with Nazi invaders in France; they were ostracized, beaten, their heads shaved
What people don't get is that the episode was aiming **EXACTLY** for that. God forbid for doing so!
This may not be something that Americans get, since the US was not invaded and occupied during WW2. France, Italy, Greece and most other countries that had been invaded and occupied however reacted in that way.
Kira was a member of a resistance force, she lived her entire life like that and the Bajoran occupation had many real life WW2 parallels. So, basically Kira is echoing what transpired during WW2 at Europe, whether it was the right way is not discussed, if anything (mind you that I haven't seen the episode for a long time), Sisko (representing a more enlightened society that was not as emotionally linked and distressed about it) didn't share her views.
But God forbid showing a grey character (Kira) and showing a difficult and grey situation. All needs to be black and white these days!
Kira's entire problem is that she sees everything in black and white, though - she's "grey" in the sense that she's not perfect but her views don't really change from the beginning of the series to the end. Aside from Duet, her opinion on Cardassians barely shifts, even when it's her own mother on the line.
At the end of the episode she still maintains that what her mother did was wrong and Sisko doesn't interrogate that. I find that really irritating, and not just because it's not "woke" or whatever, but because I would have liked to see her budge a little on the topic of collaborators. It's never mentioned that "maybe she was fighting to survive in the only way she could", or "the Cardassians would have literally killed you if your mother hadn't done what she did"... WE can see it, but Kira never does and to me that is very frustrating!
> WE can see it, but Kira never does and to me that is very frustrating!
As long as I (and you) could see it, then I am mostly fine with it. This is what is the most important aspect of it. If the story could relay that, regardless if the protagonist/character could receive the message of the story. If anything, having the character unable to see what the audience does, makes the character more tragic and thus a better character.
As for Kira? OK, she didn't, I can go with it. That makes her imperfect, which makes her more relatable and better as a character.
If I were to complain about something it is that Kira's journey about her opinion(s) about the Cardassians are not exactly consistent. At Duet her opinion shifts a little. When she is abducted and turned into a Cardassian, her opinion also shifts a little. Her surrogate father later reappears (towards the ending of the fifth season) and we see her opinion having shifted once more. During the occupation of DS9, she tries to balance things and she asks herself if she compromises too much. In a way she is a collaborator! When she goes as a liaison to the Cardassians, Damar's family is executed and Damar asks "what kind of people do that?", to which Kira replies "yeah I wonder", but does so solemnly, she is not happy about it. And then, in between that you have other episodes (such as the episode in question) that portray her more of a hardliner.
Overall the contrast isn't that big, if you ask me, but nonetheless it is there. It can be excused sometimes, as is the case with her mother. Forgiving a Cardassian she didn't know and she hadn't met before (e.g. her surrogate father) is one thing, forgiving her own mother, hits her more "at home", and it is more difficult.
Regardless however, the problem is there, minute if you ask me, but it is there.
So, sure, I can see that point (if this is what you mean), but her imperfection per se (her inability to forgive totally and always the Cardassians), no, I won't agree with that. I want her imperfect in that sense. Consistently imperfect however.
You can see why she'd be hesitant to change her views on this. She must have killed many women in the same situation. Maybe not 1-on-1, but certainly those who would have been in the company of Cardassian officers at the time of an attack. She's able to sleep at night because she's always told herself being a collaborator is something unquestionably deserving of death. If she doesn't stick to that belief then her whole sense of self will collapse. So it's rough when she actually is forced to inhabit the world those women were in and see the difficult choices and why they made them, and then see it with her own mother. If she can see how her mother didn't deserve to die, it's a slippery slope to a lot of the shit she did during the Occupation being horrifically wrong. Objectively that may be the correct view, but as you say it's a tragic situation. Part of what she deals with throughout the show is how to live with who she was during the Occupation, and this seems a realistic portrayal of someone who has to remain in denial to protect her sanity.
I get that aspect, that Kira has been fighting Cardassians her whole life and has very entrenched ideas etc.. but I feel like they've already explored that conflict in earlier episodes, like Duet for example. It seems like Kira hasn't grown or learned anything, and is more capable of feeling compassion for a Cardassian "just following orders" than she does for her own mother, or if not she's still stuck in that same mindset. And I feel like Sisko didn't really challenge her on that, at the end.
It also doesn't explain why they thought it would be a good idea to introduce this time travel contrivance, which they never use ever again even though it would be a pretty handy thing in the middle of a huge war.
Kira choosing to blow up Dukat and her mother then changing her mind and actually saving Dukat at the same time for some reason... it's ridiculous.
It makes more sense if you remember that Kira is basically a member of the Taliban.
They don’t really have a good track record with sexual harassment/ sexual assault in DS9. It’s one of the very few things I don’t like about the show.
Every time this is mentioned I try to search the clip on YouTube and every time I'm disappointed. It has the best meme potential.
And I’m dead.
It's not even a meme at this point, this is just the truth!
The best part is that Michael and Dukat have the same “I’m the good guy” face.
No one loved Bajor's mothers more than him, but is there one statue?
...besides the one in his pants?
What's the original context, here?
pretty much the same situation, he banged her mother (but consensual, of course)
You can't really call "Be in my harem and I'll make sure your husband and children don't starve to death in a labor camp" *consent*...
Parent comment means the relationship between Michael and Pam's mom was consensual, and is therefore clarifying that Dukat and Ma Kira's relationship was not.
Oh, got it. Thanks.
Hah, I just watched this episode yesterday. Dukat is like the 8yr old on Xbox except he actually did it.
I love how Kira takes him as seriously as an 8-year-old on Xbox for like 2 or 3 minutes, before eventually he reveals so much that she jumps right to "Must time travel to see if this is true."
Goddammit, if this is true - on end of season five of ds9
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This is the best thing I've ever seen
all of us at home “punch him in the face!” 😂