By - orion_140604
Fuck... I mean, good you just destroyed his Simulacrum (nervously looking around while sweating).
but you can't make a simulacrum of a fiend
You sure can, just need a Nystul's Magic Aura on it to mask it as humanoid
This don't work.
It works in my table, but I guess ultimately it may vary depending on DM. The RAW is not very clear about it, after all - arguments can be made for it to work either way.
And make that humanoid the paladin’s wife they had been searching for all this time and by killing an innocent you’ve broken your oaths and your connection with your divinity. Time to go Oathbreaker or quest for redemption!
(If you have never done something this serious to a player don’t do this without warning or foreshadowing or even talking to the player oog, make sure they are okay with something like this).
You're referring to an older edition I'm guessing?
Paladins don't lose their powers over accidentally killing an innocent person, and can even willingly go against their oath for the greater good without losing any powers.
That used to be a thing where if you break your oaths you could lose your power and then you would become an Oathbreaker Paladin.
But that would depend on the dm and I think some players felt unfair to have their characters stripped of power which rightfully so, which is why I made the note about talking to your players or introducing the idea ahead of time
Also losing your power by attacking an innocent person is one thing but attacking a person who looks sounds and senses as a pit fiend is probably okay.
You know true, the Paladin should be able to at least sense a demonic presence on her so I think he could have justification.
I shall now eat my hat
But the hat is a mimic, you were to distracted at the fact you missed that your hat was replaced, make a... dex save I would say, or a strength save being It is already on you
Probably at disadvantage since, you know, it is on my head.
Does a 5 pass?
There also used to be the classic paladin dilemma of you find a baby (insert evil race here) if you kill it you killed an innocent and lose your paladin stuff (you monster). If you spare it you spared evil and now it’s going to kill innocents when it grows up.
Classic bad GM gotcha
But what if you raise it and it becomes a Paladin of Legend!😳😯😇
Nah man if my player goes against his oath I’m not pulling any punches on that fucker
Right? To me great power comes great responsibility and there has to be strong orders of law to help prevent the world from falling into utter chaos.
Wizards and sorcerers and any half caster subclass (like arcane trickster) should have an order that investigates and stops wizards from going completely chaotic from burning down villages and raising the dead.
Clerics and Paladins have the church of their chosen divination and perhaps they send enforcers of the church or if bad enough the equivalent of an archangel to remove their connection and stop them from.
If it’s got a patron it’s got other kids or themselves that could remove even temporarily their power.
Monks have Chi points, I think if Avatar with Aang choosing Katara and so he has that last chi pool blocked (chakra? It’s been so long since I’ve watched that series).
Rogues at least in some capacity are supported by Lady Luck, I think of the whole Nightingale Order from Skyrim and think it’s a great system to have and shows why thieves don’t steal from other thieves.
Bards have a whole college and maybe they have to perform some “Song of Silence” that like strips them of their voice or creativity and until they learn their the song of the earth again.
Druids probably have nature deal with nature in its own way, but if needed an order the circle of druids or The Fey are probably always good starting points.
Fighters? Could use chi blockers as well. Probably just more trained soldiers. Same with barbarians.
I’m sure you can simplify it or make it more complicated, but every class having an order part of the world and ideas on factions about how people use power and how it’s “regulated” even if that’s some kind of Genova conventions is a way to help make that fair while adding more to your world. And if they don’t follow those orders, what do they do and how does a freelancer go about makes more interesting.
Awesome! But from a dm's perspective, this is why you always give your "boss" threatening support. Weither it's simple 1 hp minions that can throw the action economy into the bosses favor, healer(s), buffers, or even turrets or traps. Occasionally summoners lol.
From the player's perspective it still makes it interesting and challenging, while not allowing the 1 or 2 min maxed toons to simply dominate combat constantly.
Bonus points for giving them scrolls to use if the fight is a stomp, plus extra loot! A timely heal or entangle from the enemy team can add some great tension.
Adamantite Plate Armor of Radiance. Immunity to crits and radiant damage.
See you, can make then feel singled out. Or make them "useless", unless they are being a dick. You've got to do things to up the difficulty that make it interesting and not just "harder". It also brings more life, encourages strategy, and can potentially lead to some fun shenanigans.
I'd take being singled out for that as you get a badass set of plate armor out of this.
This is why I want to play a elf fighter using a heavy crossbow. I don't care about minions, I can and will kill your boss as far back from them as possible. Elven accuracy, piercer, heavy crossbow expert, and sharpshooter feats = a really dead boss. Artillery is an amazing role to fill.
In a situation like this, I'd probably have the Pit Fiend turn out to be an illusion, with the attack followed by Investigation and Perception checks to identify the illusion and locate the Wizard holding concentration on the spell.
If they locate him, he flees, and a real Pt Fiend emerges from a sunken chamber (one incidentally that has be conveniently amped due to the eldritch magics of the Wizards master).
That wouldn't be a very fun, or fair situation.
First of all, you're making a character lose resources out of nowhere by retconning the pit fiend as never having existed. You then put them against a stronger Pit Fiend after having lost their strongest attack against said enemy. That's very risky balancing wise.
Second of all, I don't think that's RAW. Guiding Strike would maybe work as normal, but Divine Smite only activates on a successful hit. There would be no successful hit here, since the Pit Fiend is an illusion.
It's probably safer to give him a second phase of some sort.
I’d mentioned some additional context later for my suggestion. A blatant bait and switch wouldn’t be fair or appropriate, agreed.
Yeah... if I were a player (regardless of whether I was the paladin or just another party member), I’d be extremely upset at the DM for pulling such an obviously last-minute decision. It strikes me as a petty way to make a player waste resources just because you think he shouldn’t be allowed to shine.
I’d mentioned some additional context later for my suggestion. A blatant bait and switch wouldn’t be fair or appropriate, agreed.
It was less about shining and more a result of character decisions having consequences (in the context I had in mind).
If you take 8 lvls of tempest cleric, 2 lvls of paladin, and 10 lvls of pact of the blade warlock and pair it with the storm girdle from wildmount it gets pretty crazy. When you are in you're avatar state from the belt you can decide to roll max damage with the tempest cleric channel divinity. With divine smite and eldritch smite both adding to weapon damage they also gets converted into lightning damage. So you can once a day decide to hit something for around 190-350 damage depending on if you crit or not
I bow before you, min-max god.
Thank you. This build is actually the result of someone challenging me to build Bell Cranel from is it wrong to pick up girls in the dungeon, his "heros shot" ability led to this ridiculousness lol
I assume they also ask you to yell "Fire-bolt!" in the voice.
I did it once for the final boss lol
I'm also curious if anyone tried to polymorph you into a rabbit.
My players are gone hate this. Thanks
My dm hated the fact that it was pretty much banishment 2.0 lol
Honestly, it’s main merit is that it’s a fantasy anime that isn’t an isekai. I’d say it’s decent, albeit a bit tropey.
I enjoyed it
Is this supposed to be Argo Vesta?
2 levels tempest cleric 17 levels
wizard 1 level whatever, take the metamagic adept feat, for transmute spell.
Cast meteor swarm, transmute it to lightening. and then use channel divinity.
You don’t need the Wizard, Sorcerers also get Meteor Swarm so you can use that instead. However, Wizard makes it better, take Order of Scribes Wizard and don’t use Metamagic. The transmute metamagic only allows you to change the fire damage to lightning, so you still have to roll the bludgeoning. Make sure you have Prismatic Wall in your spellbook, it is the only 9th level spell that uses lightning damage on the Wizard spell list. Then use your Order of Scribes feature, Awakened Spellbook, to turn both the Fire and bludgeoning damage for Meteor Swarm to Lightning damage and then use your Channel Divinity. You’ll get the full 240 damage to every creature that fails the save. ~~And have your friend play a Grave Cleric to use Path to the Grave to the biggest creature on the field, now they take 240 damage on a successful save, 480 damage on a failed one. Now that’s a lot of damage.~~
Edit: Path to the Grave doesn’t work on things that don’t use attack rolls.
I read over Grave Domain Cleric after some time and noticed that the channel divinity only triggered on “attacks” (the ones you roll to-hit). At least the paladins will still benefit!
Oh, I never noticed that before, I guess it is to prevent things like this from happening. Thank you for your correction.
Im aware. But not having to lock up my prepared slots by wasting one to prepare prismatic wall is a waste to me.
Id rather spend the feat and have more spell choice flexibility
You don’t need to prepare it, you just have to have it in your spellbook. At the level you gain 9th level spells, you get to add 2 spells, just add Meteor Swarm and Prismatic Wall and only prepare Meteor Swarm. Prismatic Wall appears in your spellbook and is the same level as Meteor Swarm which are the only two requirements for the Awakened Spellbook feature.
Isn't Divine Smite radiant and Eldritch Smite force damage?
Both deal extra weapon damage if I'm reading them correctly, so the storm girdle would convert them into lightning/thunder damage depending on the weapon
They’re added to the weapon, but the Stormgirdle specifically changes bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage, while Divine Smite is radiant and Eldritch Smite is force, so they wouldn’t be converted
Ok so alot of this game is how the rules are interpreted and my next argument is how me and my dm interpreted the wording on the storm girdle. It says when you hit with a WEAPON ATTACK that normally deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, the ATTACK deals lightning or thunder damage instead. So HIS ruling was that any extra damage added to the weapon attack gets converted as well.
It's a little finicky with the wording, and its a very loose interpretation ill admit, but if you can get your dm to agree that it works like how I've described its really fun.
If that’s how your DM decides to rule it, more power to you. For everyone else reading this thread, I would definitely make sure to ask your DM, as the wording is such that I’d imagine most of them would not be as permissive
Agreed, ill post an edit in a bit
It specifies Bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing.
*Laughs in Pathfinder 1e*
Hey, a Pathfinder pally can REALLY lay down the smack, especially with Divine Bond on his weapon.
But yeah, the Pit Fiend is **much** stronger...
So at 20th level you can nova for a couple sessions before the campaign ends...?
You can nova as soon as you get lvl 2 paladin and the belt, it's just less effective. You could do it at a minimum of lvl 4, 2lvls of paladin for divine smite and 2 lvls of tempest cleric. Using a greatsword thunderous smite and divine smite you can deal 45-85 damage garanteed at lvl 4.
I got the belt around lvl 6 and we finished the module at lvl 15
me and my friends did this i played a diviner wizard and gave them cries when i would roll them for the day.
if your dm is ok with smiting unarmed attacks could you play saitama ?
Pretty much, nothing i hit during that campaign with that combo required a 2nd hit lol
Ah, but have you done a level 4 turning into a tarrasque, I forgot how but I have a note at home on how, so combine that power with a minmaxed build and you just have... death
In our finale of Decent into Avernus, the paladin and fighter flew in and attacked a Balor. 4 attacks between the both of them. 4 crits. It was a thing of beauty watching the Balor die in <6 seconds.
That is some insane luck
We're playing Avernus right now and had something similar. DM threw a Narzugon at us expecting to at least knock one of us down or something. Me (barb/paladin) and the fighter flanked him. 4 fighter attacks with GWM (2 crits) and PAM + 2 leveled smites (1 crit) with hex later, the Narzugon went down without a turn.
This actually happened. And the dice gods blessed us and the total of the dice was 69 damage (before adding strength).
I am a bot lol.
Oh, bot. 😂
Nat 20 means the +21 doesn’t mean much, but some lovely damage dice there!
Our paladin actually decided to use the channel divinity before rolling, just in case. When that beautiful natural 20 showed it's face, we were so happy and so sad at the same time.
The paladin can of course play however they want, but it certainly isn't how I would play. When fighting a Pit Fiend with an attack modifier of +11, there's a
5% chance of a critical miss,
30% chance of needing the Guided Strike, and
65% hitting even without the Guided Strike.
In total there's a 70% chance of the paladin wasting their Channel Divinity if declaring it in advance.
In contrast, if they would declare it after knowing the attack total like the feature says one should, the chance of wasting the thing can be as low as 0%.
Again, one can play however one wants. Just saying that, from a purely mathematical standpoint, declaring Guided Strike before rolling is on average really wasteful.
Yeah I know, it wasn't the smartest move
I mean it averages out to 68 damage. Intimidating for sure but Pit Fiend has 300 hp.
The Paladin also has extra attack, but yeah that pit fiend is gonna be mad.
"Unexpected of your size. But let me try."
At will fireball goes brrr
I love the at will fireball, but pit fiends get 4 attacks, and he's a CR 19/ 20 monster meaning he's gonna hit like a truck. A Pallybro also has incredible saves, which a pit fiend would be aware of.
Yeah it deals an average of 99 damage if we assume the paladin makes the save against the poison, but fireball was funni and thus took precedence over the absurd firepower(pun) of the pit fiend
that was a good pun
Oh no no no. This simply will not do. This fight will be dramatic. Maybe I will not kill you for this performance, but I will make you fear for your life.
:: Adds HP::
DM vs PC mentality but ok
Giving the party the win they earned but after a dramatic fight they will enjoy and talk about later as opposed to an underwhelming boss fight that falls flat is DM vs players? Okay.
That's DM mentality, nobody wants an epic fight to get completely hamstrung by one great/lucky action. Winning because of it, yes, but there's no harm in keeping things interesting for everyone involved.
The paladin got a crit, used their highest level smite, and wasted a channel divinity (+10 to hit after rolling a nat 20 does nothing extra) to do ~70 damage to the Pit Fiend BBEG. Assuming the BBEG wasn't upgraded at all, that's 70/300 hp or about 25%. It's a huge chunk for sure but it's not the end of the fight quite yet.
Plus, I doubt the fight is against *just* a Pit Fiend when the party is at least 17th level.
Then the statement was out of context and harmless, but it doesn't make it part of the negative behavior described by DM vs. PC.
It's a pit fiend, who just had a severe blow dealt to both it's health and ego by some... mortal. Measured retribution is justified, likely expected, and probably super fun to play out.
You may be confusing the functionality that a DM is granted within the confines of the rules as written, see Chapter 9: *Modifying a Monster* in the Dungeon Master's Guide, with arbitrarily making an encounter harder because you want to kill the players.
There is a small, but I think important, piece of advice you may take to heart should you ever DM - the enemies or challenges you put before your players are but a platform from which to tell the story of how your players become heroes.
The Pit Fiend survives that maximum Nova damage from your Paladin expending his best resources? It must be some significant foe, perhaps one you may consider fleeing from. Perhaps this Pit Fiend is a new breed, created by some Arch Devil seeking to dominate the material plane. Perhaps the damage you dealt was facing an illusion of a Pit Fiend, and once the attack moves through, an Investigation check tells you this was an illusion of a Pit Fiend, while a Perception check from another player identifies faint chanting coming from a dark hall across the chamber by the Wizard casting this spell.
The failure of a momentous feat needn't be the DM attempting to kill the players, it could simply be an instance of the DM, as we all do from time to time, underestimating the strength of the party, and using their mistake as an opportunity to show the players being even more heroic.
The illusion option is a terrible option. You as the DM gave no option to identify this illusion prior to the paladin using a significant portion of their resources (because it wasn't an illusion until you were unhappy with the player doing something cool) and basically removed the players agency entirely.
I personally dislike modifying encounters even boss encounters because if you are changing encounters and having the fight last as long as thematically appropriate then why even bother with the dice just have people sit around and say what they are doing and then decide at some point that the enemy dies.
To make sure we're on the same page, had other players attacked this creature and dealt damage, or environment factors may have revealed the nature of the creature, arbitrarily deciding later that it was an illusion is purely poor sportsmanship, I totally agree.
The scenario I was envisioning is one in which the Paladin rushes forward, without taking an opportunity to Investigate or Perceive anything about the scenario, and blows his highest resources in an attempt to negate a challenge. That is a scenario which should necessarily have a pass/fail outcome, and at least at my table, would be extremely unsatisfying as an encounter - but not if this twist occurred.
In this situation if another player had attacked the pit fiend first or if the paladin had attacked it with just standard attacks would it have been an illusion? If the answer is that it was always intended to be an illusion then it is absolutely fine. If it was intended to be a pit fiend and then the DM decided that they didn't want that hit to count, then that is the DM punishing the player for their own poor planning.
The DM should hold themselves accountable to a certain level of internal consistency or else they are not actually playing the game.
I would personally judge based on the circumstances - specifically one in which a single player charged forward and NOVAd in an attempt to compromise the fun of the table.
I don't think a player doing something cool doesn't compromise fun at the table. If a player wants to use a significant percentage of their daily powers I don't think it is fair to just decide it doesn't count. The players should be able to feel heroic.
I see that as basically the same as telling the divination wizard they can't use their portent in a situation because reasons or more accurately just giving the opponent +20 on their saving throw so it doesn't matter if they use portent.
All in all it seems our DMing styles are fairly antithetical so I don't think either of us is going to convince the other.
Yeah I haven’t really run into any issues at our table so it’s probably more just a difference in approach.
responded to myself when I should have responded to you, but essentially: that's not at all what I was talking about, and I understand how D&D works, I've been an active player and DM for 3 years lol
It sounds like at your table the DM never changed the statistics of the monsters or encounters you faced due to unintended balance issues or to enhance the narrative, and you as a DM stand by whatever DCs or monsters you present to the players, letting the dice and outcomes of the encounters fall as they lie.
That’s perfectly fine, and my understanding is that is how a lot of games run. But don’t accuse someone who does do that of being against the players. There are perfectly reasonable situations and supported examples within the DMG of doing such a thing, so it is clearly within the confines of what a DM can (and should) do depending on the situation.
what?? i literally state in my other comment (and in the one you just replied to) that that wasn't what i was talking about, I *know* to raise or change stats to make sure not to ruin an encounter, my only issue was with a sentence in the original comment, I'm not a diehard DM nor am I someone to commit to an NPC stat block just to see an encounter go "as intended", please make sure you know what someone is talking about before you go writing paragraphs to argue with and condescend to them about.
Ah, so your issue wasn't the changing of the statistics, but the dramatic statement the preceded it in which the DM ostensibly wanted to make the players fear for their lives and make the fight dramatic?
Sorry if it was hard to understand what precisely you were criticizing.
feel like people interpreted my response here to be on the HP side of things, while I was actually annoyed at the "Maybe I will not kill you for this performance, but I will make you fear for your life." statement, it gives off the vibe of a DM with a god complex who can "kill the PCs at a whim", I've DM'd before, I've played plenty of D&D, I understand that adding HP to a monster can be important to making sure a fight has gravitas and isn't a combative mentality
just think GM's who think combatively when a PC does a fuckload of damage is toxic and shouldn't be normalised.
Using a level 5 slot for divine smite does nothing extra. Divine smite caps out at level 4. (5d8 +1d8 for undead/fiends)
So 14d8 is correct with improved divine smite on a nat20, but it would have been the same with a level 4 slot.
Divine Smite (p. 85). “Paladin spell slot” has been changed to “spell slot.” The following text has been appended to the last sentence: “, to a maximum of 6d8.”
Improved Divine Smite (p. 85). The last sentence has been deleted.
Just to be clear. Improved divine smite stacks with "regular" divine smite. [Jeremy Crawford](https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/880852301140811777)
*The DM, nervously*: The, um... the BBEG seems moderately miffed.
I mean thats about the same damage that the pit fiend does in a turn with it's basic attacks.
Oath of Conquest also get Holy weapon which increases their weapon damage by 2d8 radiant as a bonus action. Since using a 5th level spell slot doesn’t increase smite damage (2d8 radiant for a 1st level to a max of 5d8 with a 4th level, and an extra d8 for it being a demon) you can use your 5th level as a bonus action to cast holy weapon, then attack as your action.
That’s 5d8 for the 4th level spell slot, 2d8 for holy weapon, and 2d8 extra because he’s a fiend and improved divine smite, making 9d8 extra radiant damage, making 18d8 on a critical hit.
Holy weapon lasts an hour and is hands down one of the best 5th level spells a paladin can use.
YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN WISE TO REMEMBER THAT THE GENEVA CONVENTION ONLY APPLIES TO *NON*-HERETICS
*rolls lowest possible roll*
"Great! He takes 19 damage! Wizard, your up!"
"I cast Banish."
And here, you see Excalibur being unleashed upon a fiend.
**Why did the paladin use his Channel Divinity for +10 to hit, when he's already landed a nat 20, which automatically hits?**
They said in another comment that he called it out before rolling by mistake.
Paladin, full of confidence: “Haha! 60 radiant damage!”
DM, emotionless: “Is that all?”
14d8 you say, and what kind of level makes hits as weak as that, I'll stick with my approximate 27d8 thank you, BTW if you somehow survive, moving will harm you, and going off my friends, standing still hurts just as much but with a bonus of lasting, hope it was worth it
Say it with me now.
Warlock paladin doing divine smite, banishing smite and eldritch smit all in one critical hit for 10d10+11d8+weapon damage + lifedrinker damage: pathetic.
Paladin after all the damage is rolled: “I’m a Fukin do it again”
The dm that worked 3 weeks for that fight with countless sleepless nights: When you try your best and then don't succeed
When the Paladin just needs a hug but thinks taking the anger out on a Pit Fiend will fix things automagically: When you get what you want but not what you need
Dueling fighting style for 2 more damage.
My biggest mistake was giving my players a home brew coin that they would replace for a d20, heads = 1, tails = 20. Long story short the Paladin one shot a full health boss by 4hp.
Rolls all nat 1’s
Forgot u some great weapon master :)
Sometimes the PCs gotta get an easy win. And that sounds like our boi put a lot of his eggs in that swing.
One thing is being a paladin, this guy is a fucking Belmont
The pit fiend will indeed B-BEG for mercy
I'll never forget the time our elderly Tiefling Wizard browbeat a Pit Fiend. Bruising Intellect is surprisingly useful.
Why use guided strike on a natural 20???
Someone do the full math assuming max damage.
229 hitpoints of damage assuming there are no resistances/immunities or weaknesses/vulnerability in play
Well demons/devils are vulrabil to raidient damage.
No they aren't
Smite caps at slot level 4
:D now do it again for your extra attack.
I threw a pit fiend with mythic actions vs 2 paladins and a cleric. Needles to say that boss fight was smites to smithereens
I mean, you don’t have to waste a lvl 5 slot for smite as it maxes out at lvl 4 slots. But if you really want to
When you crit and guiding strike just to send a message
Don't forget extra attack and GWM
That's not how that works. Proficiency doesn't matter here because of the crit and a 5th level spell slot is wasted on divine smite, doubly so against a fiend, topping out (with improved) on 12d8 after the crit
Yeah idk why the to hit value is listed, as a nat20 hits no matter what, but as for the damage not true.
While you are correct that a 5th lvl spell slot is a waste as a 4th level slot supplies the cap for Divine Smite.
Weapon: (assuming greatsword) 4d6+5
Divine Smite: 12d8
Improved Divine Smite: 2d8
Improved Divine Smite doesn't count against the damage cap of Divine smite, as it is a completely separate ability. To be honest, not even sure why it is called Improved Divine Smite as they have no interactions at all, unlike other abilities with similar naming conventions.
I wasn't counting improved divine smite out, *obviously...* I thought the bonus damage for fiends/undead was supposed to be within the 5d8 cap