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U.S would be the #1 country if they just had universal healthcare

U.S would be the #1 country if they just had universal healthcare

KieranLivo

They could have universal healthcare and still be FAR from #1. It’s funny how the only people that seem to believe the “AMERICA IS #1” nonsense are Americans themselves.


RoRo626

How so? And tell me why more Canadians and Europeans move to the U.S than vice versa I can provide links for my claims if you want too


KieranLivo

Ah yes because immigration statistics are a 1:1 measure of a country’s worth. I I think you severely underestimate how much of a laughing stock the US is to the countries outside of it.


RoRo626

Is that why more Canadians and Europeans move to the U.S than vice versa


KieranLivo

Ah yes, because immigration statistics = an objective measure of a country’s worth.


RoRo626

Actually it does LOL You don’t see hoards of people moving to India or Pakistan


TheQuarantinian

It is a lot harder to move to Canada or Europe than it is to the US. Most countries won't just take anybody. We are the exception.


RoRo626

Really now? The truth hurts https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/121114/5-hardest-countries-getting-citizenship.asp


TheQuarantinian

Really now. US: hey, if you have no means of support, no insurance, no income, no skills, come on in! Enter illegally? Stick around as long as you want, if you skip your court date we won't even make much of an effort to track you down, but will still let you register for a license, register to vote, register for school, earn social security retirement benefits, give you food stamps and other welfare programs, let you join our military, work for the government... Name one other country that lets you do any of that?


RoRo626

You said move to I provide an article that crumbles your theory And you post a BS rebuttal How bout posting proof that it’s easy to move to the U.S


TheQuarantinian

> As of 2020, FAIR estimates that there are approximately 14.5 million illegal aliens residing within the United States. Seems pretty easy. Show up in the US illegally? You don't get deported, you're allowed to stay, and given cash and public assistance to make it easier for you to do so. Meanwhile, illegal immigrants who tried to get into Australia were locked up on an island, and people trying to get to Europe illegally were stacking up like firewood in Greece. And how hard is it to get into England? And how does Canada feel about illegal immigration?


WinningIsForWinners

Do you have a candidate for #1?


Outlaw11091

...#1 in what? Overall? Lol. No way. We're great for our strengths, but we've got some serious issues that we shouldn't. Like the Justice system or education...or highway...Hell, even our democracy needs work. Again, not saying we're bad, just that we aren't exactly #1 in most of things that matter.


RoRo626

Can you add more context to education and justice system?


Outlaw11091

Why? Are you claiming they're perfect? You need to add context to your OP before I can even begin to argue or agree.


RoRo626

You brought it up so the burden of context falls on you


Outlaw11091

...your OP. Technically, YOU brought it up.


RoRo626

I didn’t criticize the Justice and education system You did


Outlaw11091

You did. You claimed the U.S. would be #1 in unspecified terms. I asked a question to establish context and then you demanded context for my question... You appear to be trying to bait people into debates without establishing your position. Which is nonsense.


Miacali

Stand down bud, you’re in the wrong here.


BenderRodriguez14

[Education.](https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA-results_ENGLISH.png)


RoRo626

We actually have the second most college graduates per capita so there goes that theory


Outlaw11091

Yeah, it doesn't matter if they know basic math. Just that they graduated.


shadowfax2419

1. Our k-12 education is pretty mediocre compared to other developed nations 2. Our higher education is not affordable unlike other developed nations 3. Our infrastructure is out of date compared to a lot of developed nations. Crumbling roads, dirty water in a lot of areas, slow internet compared to east asian countries, shitty public transportation. And it's continuing to get worse. 4. Our poverty is pretty grim compared to other developed countries. A lot of Europeans I know were surprised about the amount of poverty they saw in the US. They said they saw nothing like it in their country or neighboring countries. Yes, universal healthcare could help some of these problems. 5. We have more gun violence than pretty much all developed countries and several developing countries. It's probably safer to walk the streets of North Korea than the US to be honest. We have a big gun violence problem that is not seen in the developed world and even some poor countries. Universal healthcare could probably solve some of this problem.Universal healthcare will make access to mental healthcare easier. But I still think we would still be more dangerous than other developed nations. 6. Our work-life balance is much worse compared to other developed nations. We work longer hours, Also, there is no mandatory paid time off unlike other developed nations. It's mandatory in almost every first world country to have at least 1 month of vacation each year. A lot of Americans only have two weeks of vacation. I know some who have pretty much no vacation. Also, we have no mandatory paid sick leave. Go to Germany, if you're sick you stay home. You don't work. It's as simple as that. In the US, people don't take a time off even if they're sick because they're afraid of getting fired. Another thing is we don't have mandatory paid parental leave. Again, pretty much every nation in the world has this. I believe some nations have more than a year of paid parental leave after having a child. In the US, you would be lucky to get two weeks off. So our work life balance is shit compared to other developed nations. 7. Our political system is out dated and flawed. By several measurements, we're a flawed democracy not a full democracy and it's continuing to get worse. And some fear that we won't be a democracy in 10 years time. The two party system is creating division in the country and does not really represent what the people want. There is a growing fear of minority rule in the country as in a few decades 50 percent of Americans will live in 8 States. That means the other 50 percent living in the 42 States will have much more say in the way our government is run because of the current voting system. 8. We have a seriously unhealthy population. Yes, universal healthcare can help with this. But a lot of this is due to shitty, processed food. Our car centric culture. Just an unhealthy lifestyle. Universal healthcare isn't going to just magically solve this problem. It's not like universal healthcare will magically boost Americans life expectancy up to the levels of developed nations either. 9. How do you even measure the #1 country? This is silly. Every country has it's pros and cons.


RoRo626

1. K-12 isn’t Mediocre since we have the second most college graduates per capita 2. Our higher education comes with quality which is why they’re expensive There is alternative cheaper colleges that are cheaper you can go to 3. Our infrastructure ranks in the top 10 world wide 4. Poverty is up because we allow so many immigrants and refugees in the country which skews the data 5. Work life is because we get paid a lot If we get mandatory vacations, wages would have to go down to off set The rest of what you said is all opinion


shadowfax2419

Ok, so let's go to your fifth point about work life balance. Doesn't that prove that there can't be a #1 country? Some people would rather have a good work life balance than getting paid more. So there is no real #1 country. Just what people prefer. If you would rather get paid more come to the US. If you would rather have more vacation, go to a European country. So the idea of a #1 country is just silly altogether which I said on my ninth point. Also, how is gun violence an opinion? We have more gun violence than every developed country. This isn't an opinion this is a fact.


RoRo626

But here’s the things As far as vacation YOU get to choose if you wanna take a vacation or not in the U.S In Europe you’re forced to take 3 weeks off even if you don’t want to and still get lower wages As far as gun violence majority comes from gang bangers in democrat cities Data is skewed


shadowfax2419

Gun violence is happening everywhere in the country. Also, most of the gun violence is in red states [https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/news/2019/11/20/477218/gun-violence-america-state-state-analysis/](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/news/2019/11/20/477218/gun-violence-america-state-state-analysis/) But even gun violence in the states with lower rates of gun violence is worse than in developed countries. That's how bad our gun violence is.


RoRo626

Red states but they’re still happing in blue cities in those cities I’m not gonna beat around the bush Most gun violence don’t happen from people who have a legally possessed firearm


BenderRodriguez14

> As far as vacation YOU get to choose if you wanna take a vacation or not in the U.S. In Europe you’re forced to take 3 weeks off even if you don’t want to and still get lower wages. Entirely untrue. I spend much of my time Ireland and don't know that I have ever taken my full 4 weeks paid holidays. I typically take 1-2, with the rest as an additional week (or two or three) of payment at the end of the year. Many countries in Europe have higher earnings per hours worked (even after taxes), with the options of overtime if available, or second jobs of not for those who want to earn more again.


RoRo626

And that comes with lower wages You think there’s no cost given for that much vacation time?


BenderRodriguez14

It does not come with lower wages. Many Europeans countries see their workforces paid more per hour worked. If they wish to work more hours again, they can work additional jobs or look into overtime from their current employers to get up to the amount of hours Americans typically **have** to work in order to not be fired.


RoRo626

Then does the U.S gave the highest disposable median income lmao


BenderRodriguez14

No. It gives Switzerland and Norway the highest per capita median disposable incomes. And they have these despite working considerably less hours than Americans per year. For some other nations it means the US worker has a higher per capita income at the end if the year, but at less dollars per hour as they are required to work a longer than their European counterparts for this. But even discounting that, the Swiss and Norwegians both make more than you in terms of disapaoble income. Despite working less hours per year.


RoRo626

https://www.statista.com/statistics/725764/oecd-household-disposable-income-per-capita/ Does the truth hurt? Oh and the countries you mentioned gave an extremely high cost of living so their high wages mean nothing


RoRo626

https://www.statista.com/statistics/725764/oecd-household-disposable-income-per-capita/


BenderRodriguez14

**K12:** You're around the fringes of the top 5 for university completion, with the likes of Ireland and Australia. Your students also perform considerably worse than you appear to think, in international rankings like those done by PISA. --- **Wages:** Americans actually make considerably less per hour than those of many other nations. For example, the average German has $27,500 disposable income from 1,350hrs of work ($20.30/hr) while the average American has $34,500 from 1,750hrs ($19.70/hr). For the average Dane this works out at $20.64/hr, $20.63/hr in the Netherlands, etc. The swiss and Norwegians also have higher median incomes than the US, both per hour and in general, despite working considerably less hours than Americans. And this is before taking into account that many of those countries above you have these higher disposable incomes **after** paying considerably higher taxes that give them many benefits Americans do not get to enjoy. --- **Poverty and immigration:** The US has less per capita immigration than Canada or western Europe.


RoRo626

K12: wrong we’re number 2 for college graduates behind Canada Wages: wrong: we have the highest disposable median income Poverty: yes but we also have the most illegal immigrants


BenderRodriguez14

And Japan, and Israel, and South Korea, and the UK. For median disposable income, you rank behind Norway and Switzerland. And median per hour incomes are lower than many other countries, as outlined above. A painful truth perhaps, but the truth all the same. As for immigration, you seem to have shifted goalposts from 'immigrants and refugees' to illegals which is interesting. Do you have figures comparing US illegal immigrants to other countries for a per capita analysis, as I am struggling to find any?


RoRo626

Oh the truth does hurt indeed https://www.statista.com/statistics/725764/oecd-household-disposable-income-per-capita/ https://www.immigroup.com/news/top-10-illegal-immigration-destinations


BenderRodriguez14

Your first image shows you are struggling with the difference between average, mean and median. The US has higher *average* wages than Switzerland and Norway, but is lower on *median* wages which is a better indicator of prosperity. Your second list shows India with more illegal immigrants than you, with others such as Russia, and possibly India and Malaysia having more per capita. And that's while still ignoring your shifting of the goalposts from "immigrants and refugees" after realising your initial error. These links don't seem to show the "truths" you think they do.


RoRo626

The illegal immigration is based off per capita


BenderRodriguez14

Nope. It has Russia at 10-12mn illegal immigrants, which is what the US is also estimated to have (11mn). This despite the US having 2.5-3x the population of Russia. Yet Russia sits as at number 3 on that list with the US at number 1. That, and the fact that the article never once appears to even hint that the list is based solely on per capita illegal immigration figures


RoRo626

Even with median U.S is still better because countries like Switzerland and Norway have a way high cost of living


Itburns12345

Is #1 status something americans think is like officaly ranked or has a miss world style competition each year ? Beligum " damn the yanks won again i want them steriod tested " etc


IKilledTheBank

I lived in South Korea for over a year under a universal one payer system. It was the BEST medical care I have ever received.


therosx

Personally I think your healthcare is already the best in the world. The problem is access and cost which every country struggles with. If you have the right job there’s no better country to get sick or injured in than the US. The problem I see is hospital prices and how they are artificially high because of insurance negotiations. Bring the cost of procedures and drugs closer to their actual market value and the American system becomes more egalitarian in my opinion. For the record I’m Canadian. Is it really universal healthcare when you need to wait over a year to see a doctor or 8 months for a follow up? In practice I’ve done more personal research to heal my self over the years than my doctors have. You’re in for a bad time if you make yourself reliant on the system fixing you. It’s good for getting you access to your meds. You’re pretty much on your own for everything else tho. That’s been my experience anyway. Better to try and fix it yourself than wait 8 months for a 20 minute consultation where they tell you to try and adopt a healthier lifestyle, here are some meds, let me know if it worked at your appointment next year. Assuming I’m even still working here and not free of my contract so I can immigrate to the US and start making real money and pay off these student loans so I can finally relax for the first time in 30 years.


BenderRodriguez14

> For the record I’m Canadian. Is it really universal healthcare when you need to wait over a year to see a doctor or 8 months for a follow up? I'm a permanent resident in Canada (which qualified me for OHIP), and have never had any issues with access to medical assistance or treatment. My OH (Canadian born) has had significant medical issues in the last 3-4 years and hasn't either, though we may just be fortunate there? We also lived in Toronto which might have made life a lot easier compared to if we were in Muskoka, Thunder Bay, etc. I'm from Ireland though where we have both public and private which I my opinion gives the best option of both worlds.


therosx

I’m in Nova Scotia. Its pretty slow in Halifax.


ThatsWhatXiSaid

> Personally I think your healthcare is already the best in the world. Based on what metric? [US Healthcare ranked 29th by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext) [11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) [59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings) [30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/) [37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000) The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016 52nd in the world in doctors per capita. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization >The problem is access and cost which every country struggles with. Not to the extent Americans do. Americans are paying a quarter million dollars more for healthcare over a lifetime compared to the most expensive socialized system on earth. Half a million dollars more than countries like Canada and the UK. One in three American families had to forgo needed healthcare [due to the cost](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx) last year. Almost three in ten had to [skip prescribed medication](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/data-note-americans-challenges-health-care-costs/) due to cost. One in four had [trouble paying a medical bill.](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/data-note-americans-challenges-health-care-costs/) Of [those with insurance one in five had trouble paying a medical bill](https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/8806-the-burden-of-medical-debt-results-from-the-kaiser-family-foundation-new-york-times-medical-bills-survey.pdf), and even for those with income above $100,000 14% had trouble. One in six Americans has [unpaid medical debt on their credit report.](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/millennials-rack-up-the-most-medical-debt-and-more-frequently) [50% of all Americans](https://news.gallup.com/poll/317948/fear-bankruptcy-due-major-health-event.aspx) fear bankruptcy due to a major health event. >Is it really universal healthcare when you need to wait That's more of a Canada thing than a universal healthcare thing. The US ranks 6th of 11 out of Commonwealth Fund countries on ER wait times on percentage served under 4 hours. 10th of 11 on getting weekend and evening care without going to the ER. 5th of 11 for countries able to make a same or next day doctors/nurse appointment when they're sick. https://www.cihi.ca/en/commonwealth-fund-survey-2016 Americans do better on wait times for specialists (ranking 3rd for wait times under four weeks), and surgeries (ranking 3rd for wait times under four months), but that ignores three important factors: * Wait times in universal healthcare are based on urgency, so while you might wait for an elective hip replacement surgery you're going to get surgery for that life threatening illness quickly. * Nearly every universal healthcare country has strong private options and supplemental private insurance. That means that if there is a wait you're not happy about you have options that still work out significantly cheaper than US care, which is a win/win. * [One third of US families](https://news.gallup.com/poll/269138/americans-delaying-medical-treatment-due-cost.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication) had to put off healthcare due to the cost last year. That means more Americans are waiting for care than any other wealthy country on earth. #Wait Times by Country (Rank) Country|See doctor/nurse same or next day without appointment|Response from doctor's office same or next day|Easy to get care on nights & weekends without going to ER|ER wait times under 4 hours|Surgery wait times under four months|Specialist wait times under 4 weeks|Average|Overall Rank :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--: **Australia**|3|3|3|7|6|6|4.7|4 **Canada**|10|11|9|11|10|10|10.2|11 **France**|7|1|7|1|1|5|3.7|2 **Germany**|9|2|6|2|2|2|3.8|3 **Netherlands**|1|5|1|3|5|4|3.2|1 **New Zealand**|2|6|2|4|8|7|4.8|5 **Norway**|11|9|4|9|9|11|8.8|9 **Sweden**|8|10|11|10|7|9|9.2|10 **Switzerland**|4|4|10|8|4|1|5.2|7 **U.K.**|5|8|8|5|11|8|7.5|8 **U.S.**|6|7|5|6|3|3|5.0|6 Source: [Commonwealth Fund Survey 2016](https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/cmwf2016-datatable-en-web.xlsx)


therosx

Your science has blinded me and brought me low. I take back what I said.


[deleted]

Number 1 in what? I support a universal health system (that allows for private insurance and private health practices), but by what metric is the U.S. "number 1"?


RoRo626

Best universities, most noble peace prices, highest median disposable income, best military, only country with protected freedom of speech, most gold medals, best innovation (most patents)


Ganymede25

I was told by some people who lived in London that this was the case for the UK. I’m in favor of universal healthcare. It’s good to try different things. Sometimes our way works better. Sometimes it doesn’t. We pay more per person for the same quality of health care than our highly advanced allies.


RoRo626

That’s actually a myth Our quality is amazing in the U.S Highest cancer survival rate and high life expectancy despite being one of the fattest countries in the world


DishingOutTruth

>high life expectancy Tf are you talking about? Our life expectency is like 5 years lower than northern and western europe. >Highest cancer survival rate Really not by much. Its not a big enough difference to justify our healthcare.


WinningIsForWinners

More like 2 - 4 years. The difference isn't healthcare, it's the shit we eat. https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/life-expectancy#:~:text=Life%20Expectancy%20by%20Country%202021%201%20Hong%20Kong.,...%209%20Channel%20Islands.%20...%2010%20Iceland.%20


BenderRodriguez14

I'd say it's a bit of both most likely, though improved regulations on American foods would definitely be a benefit.


Introduction_Deep

No it's not, unless you got cash or really good insurance. Our life expectancy is falling (we're 46th), our infant morality is going up (we're 33 out of 36 countries measured)...


RoRo626

Read what I wrote again


ThatsWhatXiSaid

> Our quality is amazing in the U.S Eh. [US Healthcare ranked 29th by Lancet HAQ Index](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext) [11th (of 11) by Commonwealth Fund](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror-wall-2014-update-how-us-health-care-system?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror) [59th by the Prosperity Index](https://www.prosperity.com/rankings) [30th by CEOWorld](https://ceoworld.biz/2019/08/05/revealed-countries-with-the-best-health-care-systems-2019/) [37th by the World Health Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000) The US has the worst rate of death by medically preventable causes among peer countries. A 31% higher disease adjusted life years average. Higher rates of medical and lab errors. A lower rate of being able to make a same or next day appointment with their doctor than average. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-percent-used-emergency-department-for-condition-that-could-have-been-treated-by-a-regular-doctor-2016 52nd in the world in doctors per capita. https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Physicians/Per-1,000-people Higher infant mortality levels. Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Fewer acute care beds. A lower number of psychiatrists. Etc. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-health-care-resources-compare-countries/#item-availability-medical-technology-not-always-equate-higher-utilization >Highest cancer survival rate It's true [five year survival rates](https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/336860627.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi5976Vm8nuAhVHPawKHZqZDIAQFjAKegQIERAB&usg=AOvVaw1DAH8tvacvRfEzTBLjZR9K) for some types of cancer are a bright spot for US healthcare. But that doesn't tell the entire story, due to things like lead-time and overdiagnosis biases. The following articles go more in depth: https://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/cancer-rates-and-unjustified-conclusions/ https://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/why-survival-rate-is-not-the-best-way-to-judge-cancer-spending/ The other half of the picture is told by mortality rates, which measure how many people actually die from cancer in each country. The US does [slightly worse than average](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cancer-death-rates?time=2017..latest&country=AUS~AUT~BEL~CAN~DNK~FIN~FRA~DEU~High-income~ISL~IRL~ISR~ITA~JPN~LUX~NLD~NOR~SGP~KOR~ESP~SWE~CHE~TWN~GBR~USA) on that metric vs. high income peers. More broadly, cancer is but one disease. When looking at outcomes among a broad range of diseases amenable to medical treatment, [the US does poorly against its peers](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(18\)30994-2/fulltext), ranking 29th.


RoRo626

You just proved yourself wrong everything you posted is opinionated All your data is has different countries at different rankings I go base off two measures which are accurate Life expectancy which is high even with out obesity rate and cancer survival which is the best measure since the hardest to treat


ThatsWhatXiSaid

> You just proved yourself wrong How did I do that? >everything you posted is opinionated And by that you mean you don't like it, despite it coming from reputable sources. By all means, post the information that's not "opinionated" that lead to your conclusion that US healthcare quality is "amazing". >Life expectancy which is high even with out obesity rate Except it's really not. Certainly obesity affects life expectancy, but the US does poorly against the trend. https://i.imgur.com/T8G7w2t.png This is despite dramatically outspending its peers, on an issue where spending is typically highly correlated with greater life expectancy. https://i.imgur.com/v6kFghp.png >and cancer survival which is the best measure since the hardest to treat Except, again, more Americans are dying from cancer than other high income countries. Not to mention that even to the extent your claim about cancer being hardest to treat might be true, the implication that it's OK that more Americans are dying from easier to treat diseases than in peer countries somehow doesn't reflect poorly on us is ridiculous.


RoRo626

https://www.healio.com/news/hematology-oncology/20180131/us-cancer-survival-rates-remain-among-highest-in-world


ThatsWhatXiSaid

Repeatedly posting links that fail to address the problems with five year survival rates I've provided citations for is not furthering the discussion. It might help if you attempt to read and actually understand the citations I have given rather than frothing at the mouth to argue. Not to mention ignoring almost every single point I made reflects poorly on you. So go back and actually provide a substantive response to my points or stop wasting everybody's time.


RoRo626

And this explains the infant mortality rate https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161013103132.htm


ThatsWhatXiSaid

> And this explains the infant mortality rate Are you illiterate? I said this for a reason: > Higher infant mortality levels. **Yes, even when you adjust for differences in methodology.** > #**Accounting for differential reporting methods, U.S. infant mortality remains higher than in comparable countries** >When countries have different methods for reporting infant deaths, it is primarily a matter of how they report deaths among infants with very low odds of survival. According to the OECD, the United States and Canada register a higher proportion of deaths among infants weighing under 500g, which inflates the infant mortality rate of these countries relative to several European countries that count infant deaths as those with a minimum gestation age of 22 weeks or a birth weight threshold of 500g. > Our analysis of available OECD data for the U.S. and some similarly large and wealthy countries finds that **when infant mortality is adjusted to include only those infant deaths that meet a minimum threshold of 22 weeks gestation or 500g in birth weight, the U.S. infant mortality rate is still higher than the average for those comparable countries with available data (4.9 vs 2.9 deaths per 1,000 live births).** Without adjusting for data differences, the U.S. infant mortality rate appears to be 84 percent higher than the average for the same set of comparable countries. (Note that this comparison was limited to 2016 data and could not include data for Australia, Canada, and Germany, which are included in the previous chart’s comparable country average for 2017.) https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/infant-mortality-u-s-compare-countries/ Or this article... >Methods—Infant mortality and preterm birth data are compared between the United States and European countries. The percent contribution of the two factors to infant mortality differences is **computed using the Kitagawa method,** with Sweden as the reference country. Results—In 2010, the U.S. infant mortality rate was 6.1 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, and the United States ranked 26th in infant mortality among Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries. After excluding births at less than 24 weeks of gestation to ensure international comparability, **the U.S. infant mortality rate was 4.2, still higher than for most European countries and about twice the rates for Finland, Sweden, and Denmark.** > The United States compares favorably with most European countries in the survival of very preterm infants. However, the comparison becomes less favorable as gestational age increases. For example, the U.S. infant mortality rate at 37 weeks of gestation or more was highest among the countries studied, and about twice the rates for Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. This study found that 39% of the United States’ higher infant mortality rate, when compared with that of Sweden, was due to the higher U.S. percentage of preterm births, while 47% of the difference was due to the United States’ higher infant mortality rate for infants at 37 weeks of gestation or more. A previous report found a larger effect for preterm birth (10), mostly due to the inclusion of births at 22–23 weeks of gestation in that report. Recent declines in the U.S. infant mortality rate and percentage of preterm births, and the use of the obstetric estimate to measure gestational age in the current report (compared with gestational age based on the last menstrual period used in the previous report), may have also contributed to the difference in findings between the two reports. >The findings from the current analysis suggest that declines in either the percentage of preterm births or in infant mortality rates at 37 weeks of gestation or more could have a substantial positive impact on the U.S. infant mortality rate. If both of these factors could be reduced to Sweden’s levels, the U.S. infant mortality rate (excluding events at less than 24 weeks) would be reduced from 4.2 to 2.4—a decline of 43%. **Such a decline would mean nearly 7,300 fewer infant deaths** than actually occurred in the United States in 2010. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_05.pdf


Pixelguin

Just to keep up the discussion, what country would you currently place in the #1 spot, and what shortcomings do you think it has that, should the US get universal healthcare, would cause it to become a distant #2?


RoRo626

I don’t think any country is #1 there are some huge pros and cons I can easily point out to every country


nicholsz

[http://hdr.undp.org/en/data](http://hdr.undp.org/en/data) Life expectancy is dropping in the US, and infant mortality is rising. Health care could maybe help with that. We also have a lot of medical bankruptcies, which is bizarre and unthinkable in most of the world.


timothyjwood

I tend to prefer the wording of a "universal minimum". We do the same thing with education. We don't guarantee everyone a doctorate, but we do guarantee a universal minimum 12 years, with the option to "buy" a seat in a fancy private school if you want to opt out of public. It makes sense that a society would tend to benefit when its people are healthy and productive. Untethering basic health coverage from employment would also likely increase competitiveness in the labor market. Your average worker is probably more likely to take risks, search out that dream job or start that new business, if they're not worried about the ability to take their kid to the doctor in the interim. It's pretty uncontroversial that preventative care is better than catastrophic care. It's also pretty uncontroversial that the point of insurance is to spread risk, that it works better when the risk-pool is larger, and there is no larger pool than literally everyone. Would we be "number one"? That's not exactly a real metric. We're a big country. We have a lot of natural resources, and we're fairly rich. We've also benefited from a lot of historical accident, like two world wars that took place *over there* instead of *over here.* But we would almost certainly be better off with universal minimum health coverage.


wtn06

I think you could do a dual system of sorts that would be better than true universal. We already somewhat have it. I live in a poor red state, but even here someone can go to the local health department for free and get basic medical services, mostly preventative care. If we expanded this infrastructure that is already in place it would help reduce the burden of non paying individuals on the private system. I think this could be implemented for less than full fledged universal healthcare.


RoRo626

So basically expand Medicaid?


wtn06

Yeah, I guess so. I would like to beef up what the service level and expand the coverage as well. Basically, make it really good healthcare.


nicholsz

Fun fact: if you add up the VA system (\~150B), Medicaid (\~600B), and Medicare (\~800B), you get a per capita purely government-funded health care cost of \~$4700 in the US. That's higher than what the UK, Japan, Finland, New Zealand, etc pay *total* per capita in all health care costs. Without even counting our private system or the ACA.


BenderRodriguez14

Yeah but on the US the money *ahem* funnels upwards more effectively, so.......


articlesarestupid

I do want a universal healthcare but with a unique governmental structure we have, we can't adopt the exact same ones from other countries.


RoRo626

I’m curious Why do you say that?


articlesarestupid

Well, the US is one of few, if not only, countries in the world where state governments are inherently adversarial relationship to federal governments, unlike many countries where provincial governments are mere extensions of centralized entity. Also, different states have drastically different culture and economies.


IKilledTheBank

Dual system.... nope. Unless all doctors and facilities are forced to accept the government insurance plan too.