State of the Industry

State of the Industry


Now if I could move the ships from ED to NMS...


Ya my annocanda would be fun to store stuff in. It’s hot so much storage.


My annocanda don't want nun unless you got storage hun.


I like big trunks and I cannot lie / You other pilots can't deny


This speaks to me, as my capital ship in NMS is named 'I like big bays and I cannot lie'


That when a T9 walks in with an itty bitty cargo rack And a FSD in your face You get...jettisoned


I literally can not read the words "my anaconda..." without hearing some variation of this in my mind


*Slaps roof of ship*: This bad boy can fit so many S L A V E S.


I'd kill to have walk-in haulers with crew quarters etc. in NMS


I’ve been screaming this for the past 3 years. LET US CAR POOL PLEASE. Let my 5 homies jet pack out the back ramp of the hauler down to the surface below PLEEAASE


Once they add this and a player city instead of the anomaly the game is complete.


For this to happen, something REALLY has to be done about the game crashing and fps drops when landing on a highly inhabited/populated planet in Nms


If NMS had a better flight model, I think ED would end up barren.


Ehhh, I don’t play elite really but I think there’s something to be said for it’s more realistic portrayal of space. You can see nebulas and supernovas, gas giants red dwarfs etc etc in Elite and No Man’s sky just doesn’t have that and isn’t trying to. I think they’re just too different to fill the same niche honestly


I think they appeal to different fantasies of sci-fi. NMS appeals to the fantasy of exploring an uncharted galaxy. ED and SC (as far as I'm aware) appeal to the fantasy of piloting a realistic spaceship, and all the complexities thereof, in a more grounded sci-fi setting. And something like Star Wars: Squadrons appeals to the fantasy of dogfighting in a starfighter. All are perfectly valid "space games," but all are incredibly varied in their appeals.


Hmmm, I see what you're saying but one of the things that turns me off about NMS is that it doesn't feel uncharted at all....there are stations and structures and spaceships friggin everywhere already!


Uninhabited worlds are just semi-rare. If you know the story, you know why life is everywhere. Just go to an uncharted system and find a dead, lifeless, airless, capped, fractured etc planet. I bet you walk miles and see nothing but maybe the odd anomaly creature.


There are plenty of uncharted systems now. The only sign of intelligent life there is >!Other "player characters" who, since they were spawned in an uninhabited system and couldn't get the necessary components, were stranded and died a lonely death.!<


I think it might be more of a slowly growing feeling of solitude rather than exploration truly in nms, at least that's what I feel with its soundtrack and gameplay when I'm alone. With other players its minecraft


There is no feeling in NMS like the one ED gives you by being in the void for months where you don't have contact with absolitly nothing alive most of the time, and if you do it is the odd space bug, that sense of you and your ships and the opressive nothingness of space is quite amazing


Im glad both game fill two different needs.




Yep, I play and love both. It's like enjoying both Apollo 11 and Star Wars.


I play elite dangerous and nms for two very different reasons. Even with a better flight model i still think they would maintain their proper fanbases.


I've played all three of these, and besides being in space, each of them has very little in common with the others. Complexity of space flight, planet types, focus on space travel, quest types, story type, it's all very different. They all have their own role to fulfill in the Space Sim community


I quite like the scale of ED, I find it far more immersive especially in VR. NMS is a good 'just pop in and do some shit for an hour' game. ED is a 'get totally immersed for most of the day' experience for me.


Ahh I'm actually the opposite. I've built upwards of twenty to thirty fully fleshed out bases in NMS and I've only owned it a month. Apparently I have an addictive personality lol


Elite actually pulled a reverse Star Citizen and went from finished product to Alpha.


I'm an ED player and I laughed at this


how can u be a player when you have ED?


He's a player of the heart 💖


awww 🥰


Dunno, sounds like friendzonED


Awwwwohfuck ow ow shit fuck that hurts fuck stop pulling my heartstrings that hurts im coughing up blood im dying please stop


Haha touché?


Oral technique, so exceptional that word gets around.


like Pod from GoT


The pills help for 4-8 hours.


I'm an ED and SC player and I'm just crying now.


As another ED player I also laughed at this.


Everything I have seen and read indicates to me that I made the right decision to hold off on poking Odyssey until they've had more time to shake it out.


As an ED player I wish this wasn't true, but I laughed all the same.


Right? Like, I looked at the new expansion for E:D and was like "Why would I pay £29.99 for an unfilished DLC when they havent even finished the last DLC???"


Especially when the planets are pretty much dead and theres still no functionality of walking in your ship. I've been looking for a game with that for so long and I thought ED was it.. then I was disappointed


Still only star citizen as far as I've found. Walking on a ship during QT just never gets old for some reason


X4 also lets you walk around your ship and board other ships.


For me, it’s just the feeling of being in charge. Like “Shit, I own AND fly this majestic, colossal spacefaring steel beast.” Never gets old. SC gives you the ability to appreciate fully your WHOLE spaceship. Not just the cockpit or the exterior.


Yeah don't get me wrong I had a blast with Ed when it came out I still love nms and come back every few patches but nothing beats the feeling of commanding a giant ship stuffed with vehicles/weapons/cargo and it all being physically *there*. In ED all my ships felt the same size even though I knew they weren't. That never happens in SC haha.


I mean.. subnautica, kinda?


Implying SC will ever be a finished product.


I have more hours in SC than ED, with less down time, but I appreciate both games. I believe SC will be “finished” in the same way ED is: It isn’t. And both games will have ups and downs in content and quality until the servers die or the death of the universe. E: typo


The last time I launched SC was about four months ago. I spawned in an apartment. I had to manually find my way to the elevator, ride it down in real time, wander around a real-scale city until I found the signs for the starport, take a tram in real time to get to a different section of the city, then wander around there until I found the actual starport. Finally I got my ship, found the door, powered it up, got clearance to take off. As I was finally entering the atmosphere, my ship exploded without warning or explanation. I respawned in the apartment. I again had to manually walk to the damn starport in real time. I was informed it would be a big amount of time until I could respawn my busted starship. I closed the game and haven’t picked it up since. I spent over an hour in game and literally did nothing except be bored and lost. No thanks. Less “immersion” please, and more gameplay.




Well said


Implying E:D will ever be a finished product.


Theoretically, yes. Practically … I don’t think they’ve really planned beyond “and then people will give us their money”.


That is every step of their plan.


Why would they want to finish it? They've made more from selling a dream them they'd ever make from a spaceship game.


This is hilariously accurate. I've been playing ED since 2015. At this point I say screw FDev, let it burn. They don't deserve a successful game. I have never seen such a potent combination of narcissism, laziness, arrogance, and incompetence in a developer.


I'm still bitter about the Gnosis scandal.


Oh God, I had forgotten about that. Yea, that was an absolute cluster. Further evidence that FDev can't produce quality content even when it's dropped into their laps. It's like they're content averse.


My only problem with the gnosis fundamentally, was the fact that they lied. I don't remember the details but there were quite literally two posts by them, was verifiable dates that contradicted what they actually said and what they did. What could have been an emergent gameplay scenario, a relatively low cost, populated by a huge swath of the players, turned into a nothing scenario that people had spent weeks preparing for. Oh well I'm going to go back to exploring areas out of the bubble.


>It's like they're content averse. It's crazy, right? All content they produce seems to be procedural but not even the good kind of procedural (like NMS). And it was five years between Horizons and Odyssey with basically no new content in between. And even the content that's added is crazy grindy - I've played Free-to-Play games with less grind and shorter fun/reward loops. And even the "space trucker" gameplay is kind of beaten by actual "trucker" games (Snowrunner). FDev seems to fully ignore the entire rest of the industry, it's like they've never played any games since the original Elite.


A small part of me jokingly wonders if FDev is actually conducting a massive social experiment, seeing how much BS a devoted playerbase will take before finally saying f-it.


> I have never seen such a potent combination of narcissism, laziness, arrogance, and incompetence in a developer. Still better than CIG.


Star Citizen is never going to be finished don’t be silly.


Yep, the game is designed to be constantly updated. A "release" would just be a traditional thing that they'll do whenever they reach a certain point of polished game systems.


Releasing full campaign of Squadrons 42 would be a fair point to mark "a release". I hope to see it before I die, any time between this year and thirty more or so.


Isn't that most games these days. "Games as a service" has taken over nearly every main franchise out there lately.


The “wheee” is killing me because it’s true and in result I can’t take the other games seriously


I don’t know what it is about the “wheee!” That fascinates me so much!


Because we know that's the feeling we all get the moment we start playing


I hate to use the phrase “this game makes you feel like ——“ but it really makes me feel like I’m a kid again playing with paper spaceships and stuff


Don't hate the phrase because you just spoke for every NMS player and none of us can deny it!


I get to ride a dinosaur with lazers to my spaceship to board my space freighter and normandy is part of my fleet and there are planets with floating glowing mushrooms and ... It's like they took every childhood dream about spaceships and mushed it all together and glued it together with rainbows and pastel crayons. It's glorious!


I got my first submarine yesterday (I’m quite new to the game) and it was the coolest thing going from the bottom of the sea to the depths of space all in one game


I’m thinking about the meme videos. “Abababbaba aWeeeeeee ganagabdhha a weeeeeeeee”


Reminds me of south park lol "I'm a buttafly wheeee"


NMS is great, but damn is the procedural repetition starting to grate on me


Same, I basically only play it in short bursts now, I love the game to death but you can only build so many bases Literally


If you have it on PC mods help a bit with the repetition. Honestly, if they allowed mods in PS4 it would be great. Either that or allow a greater freedom with modding


That's what I just did. Disable mod.txt gone and now even without using steam I can build better bases with my xbox account


Nice. I honestly get why the Base Limit is a thing since greater bases tank the engine, but still, they could have changed the rendering criteria or something like that to make the base expansion.... better. Either that or add in new models for variety, or better yet let you import new models. Even if the last one would be challenging from a multilayer point of view.


NMS has a lot of variety, but its the same format in different colors, so that "variety" tends to get old fast as it has little depth.


I wish some things had colors. Like dead planets are always brown, hot planets always orange. They could do so much variety by adding more colors to planets, flora, fauna and minerals.


Variety of biomes within the same planet. Like the entire planet is the same, there are no species per planet or different temperature zone, etc


The problem with "Variety of biomes within the same planet" now makes ALL the planets the same planet - since you get everything in one planet. Planets now lose a huge chunk of identity if you do that. Not to mention the novelty will wear off quickly, and players will be just complaining that you're just getting 3 planet enviroments instead of just 1, so it's the same as just visiting 3 different planets instead. It literally increase the problem you're having. EDIT: I get what you're saying, but it's one of those "It sounds cool, but in practice - it really doesn't give you what you think it does." kinda thing. It's the reason they removed planetary rotation from beta because it was causing more gameplay problems than good.


Maybe compromise? Dead planets and such will be the same, but perhaps planets like humid or temperate, might have icecaps or something. This would also give some people the opportunity to do more solar builds, if they build on the ice caps they will have longer days, but it will be cold all the time. Stuff like that would as variety to a bunch of planets. I wouldn't mind also seeing water worlds, not sure about practicality but if made those with borderline 0 land mass (just enough for you to land on) and then the oceans would be crazy deep. That would make underwater gameplay more interesting. I think more specifically unique planets on a whole would be great no matter what.


Water world's are already a thing. It was a whole update for that though I wouldn't mind seeing it expanded.


I get your point, it's a good one but let's just say they add a multi biomed planet and said planet has a desert biom and lush biom perhaps the desert and lush biom can look completely different from a desert planet or lush planet, they can be desert and lush but with completely new assets exclusively for the multi biomed planet types. Same goes with all the other bioms.


It's Not terrible, have you ever seen the game Space Engineers? The planet generation in that game uses multiple bioms and it works pretty well.


No, I'll have to check it out. Thanks for letting me know 👍


I agree with you, it's challenging enough to make every planet unique, making them unique between them AND within them it's really complicated. But let a man dream :P




Go to the galaxies that have no economy and the ships stop flying around


I've gone to star systems where there isn't even a space station and it feels totally uncharted and like I'm the first one there so I don't know why people are saying.


That's what I mean by "no economy". There's no space station and therefore no trading posts, small settlements, Archive stations, etc. So NPCs have no reason to fly around


That especially infuriates me. I want to be able to find a planet, not just find somewhere that has already been colonized.


Go to red systems if you want the highest chance for uncharted planets with no NPC's, space stations, or facilities.


I think the issue comes from the gameplay more than the repetition itself. Procedural generation is limited, it always will be, even with mods you can't have procedural generation that will keep you busy for years That being said, NMS still has more variety in biomes than any other game out there. The probablem is that there isn't enough gameplay on planets. We jump between them so quickly that we "burn out" the content too fast and it ends up looking repetitive too quickly Minecraft has way less variation and it keeps people occupied longer, because the exploration gameplay is better


NMS has a series of divorced content ideas that play it safe and ultimately don't mesh to create a comprehensive gameplay loop. Like the fact that every basic resource is on every planet, means that there's no real need to stock up. Your ship can be called to you. It's a quick jaunt from land to surface, and the only difference in planets is colour because cliffs can't exist in the heightmap. Minecraft, in contrast, creates scenarios about whether or not you have resources. In a desert? You're stuck without wood. In the Nether? You have to travel out of the wastes to find food, and even that is only harvestable from giant pigs that will kill you. Underground without torches is a dark abyss and without wood means that you have to struggle to find your entrance. NMS plays it very safe, even in hardcore mode, and ultimately never puts you in dangerous situations.


>The probablem is that there isn't enough gameplay on planets. That was my problem with this game, I've played it a good amount but it boiled down to me searching for planets to make a base, then leaving that base to go search for more planets becuase there is very little point to having a base.


You should see it in ED. No real life save for bacteria and static models of fungus, and the exact same species repeats across every single planet in the universe. 400 billion planets, all with the same god damn bacteria, and if you scan 1000 samples you can trade the data for fucking, shoelaces or some stupid useless shit.


To be honest the only thing that’s keeping me in ED still is the grind for the Imperial Cutter and an Elite rank. Once I got that ship and a single Elite, I’d most likely just leave. The game is just lifeless and repetitive if not for the grind.


Can confirm got the Cutter and looked at what to do with it and realised "huh the grind was the game all along" and stopped playing


Similar story, it took me 119 hours to grind the oppressor mk2 in gta5 and once I got it I played for about 8 hours before never touching the game again.


I think now that we've tasted procedural generation, a good "sequel" might be to have a single solar system with a like a dozen planets/moons with biomes that are designed only in part by procedural generation. That way you're not just zipping all over the galaxy across infinitely similar planets - instead you have to commit to ground exploration of vast and varied biomes on a single planet to find resources? And the planets might feel more real with personalities of their own. I don't know if that's different enough, but it could be worth trying


Ya. After going to 10 planets, I felt like I’ve seen them all. After 50, I was done. Too much


Meanwhile kids in Eve online: getting carpal tunnel from micromanaging 45 different graphs and charts while fending off a faction raid.


While Elite dangerous' ground is not great right now, the ship combat, customization, practically anything relating to ships is better then NMS.


I would love larger ships with multi person crew.


I've wanted this for so long


Seriously, Frontier Solutions in Odyssey is WILD. Tried it for the first time yesterday.


Fixing the ships in NMS is infinitely more doable than making decent atmospherics in ED.


As much as I love both, that’s not even close to the case. Good atmospherics may be unlikely anytime soon considering frontier, but it’s entirely possible. However, getting the ships in nms to function the same as elite or better, would require completely changing the game. I’d love it, but that’s not happening




Yes. But I've been waiting for years for a more serious (less arcade) flight model. They have put into the game furry animals you can breed, and other nonsense, but not realistic ships you can fly. This, in a space game, where spaceships are the main thing you interact with. NMS is doing a great job adding stuff on and showing progress, but the priority are too much on the cute side, I think. It's trying to be a game for children and teens, not for adults.


I think NMS treats ships just as transportation, as a mean to explore, while games like ED are trying to accurately simulate how it would be to operate a spaceship. This is why I call NMS a space exploration game while ED is a space sim. That being side, I would be happy if they just added the ability to hover with your ship... WHY CAN'T YOU HOVER WITH YOUR SHIP? :(




And not boring super arcadey flying. Auto landing is lame.


I actually hate the landing in NSM. There's usually a 20% chance of me landing, often times my ship just yeets itself away from where I wanted to land for no reason even with me repeatedly spamming the land key.


Try holding the land key instead, some say this works well.


Is that ganz Worm thingy new ?


They were added a couple of updates ago.


Where csn i find shit like that ? I always get the Planets wiith as good as no Vegetation or animals.


Just keep exploring. If they were on every planet they wouldn’t be as exciting, would they?


I've mostly found them on the desert planets


I find it interesting how the RNG works in no mans sky we have people saying they havent seen any sandworms, yet when i play theyre just about on every planet i touch down on


Poor X series, nobody gives a dang about them


I just bought X4 the other day and I’m lost. Good times haha


I got X4 before getting Elite and I found it far too small to be soo overly complicated but BOY did I enjoy learning how to park, and once I mastered it I legit would just fire it up to park a while.


Wow ... As a long time ED fan this makes me sad. How did HG with like 15 devs blow Frontier away so easily... With FREE updates


The answer is 'Caring Before Profit'. That's how. Care about the product and the fans more than you care about getting richer. It really is that simple.


And ironically, will in the long run, lead to you getting much richer.


yeah, if they had left the game as is, and hadn't improved so much, they probably wouldn't have gotten that sweet Game Pass payday, so it definitely paid off


Exactly. How many people, especially those of us who suffered through the early NMS days, will not pre-order anything Hello Games announces? I'm hoping Sean has learned his lesson about over-hyping their next game and just focuses on core gameplay, with promises of all the other goodies at a later date. Look at American Truck Simulator. They've been releasing a state or two for several years now, and people understand that they won't see the entire U.S. for many years. But they're still a very popular and good selling game. Just being honest with your customers goes a hell of a long way.


I’ll say you should definitely watch internet historian’s video on nms. It really explains Hello game’s side really well and what went wrong.


The fanfiction really drives it home. Procedural everything.


Praise Sean


I'm just cracking up over the wheeeeeeee. xD


The odyssey update has been a disaster


I passed on it since it costs as much as whole game...


Hell, it's more than the base game ($40 vs $30). This is really aggravating since ED has been on my to-get list for a long time, but I'm not paying $70 for it.


I have it in my steam library and dont even remember buying it... I think it was for the VR, and then i realized they had no support for touch control and I had to blind fumble my keyboard while first learning the game, getting out of space stations was ROUGH.


I sold my headset years ago since I needed the cash, but playing E:D is the game I miss most. I had to use a joystick and get used to not seeing the buttons, but once I got it down it was so immersive I basically forgot I was sitting at my desk. Taking the headset off was like, "Oh shit that's right. I'm not in the middle of nowhere in space."


I did just get Horizons for about 6 Euros..


Didn't get it on epic when they gift for free? You would have taken even the horizon update


Yeah, I missed it somehow. I'll have to wait for a sale.


I mean you dont HAVE to get odyssey everyone started off with base stuff and honestly horizons is enough content to get by. Yea odyssey is buggy and needs to be cheaper but until the buff out the scratches base plus horizons is still alot of content


Yeah, even Obsidian Ant was upset.


when he gets upset you dun fucked up


I expected nothing less. Not even gonna try it for quite a bit..


The best part of me buying Odyssey was it got me back into NMS. Worth every penny.


So much fucking potential it makes me sad


I look at the bottom image and hear the Never Ending Story theme in my head.


It's the never ending stooooryyyyy Do do do dodo doo do do


People can pretend like this isnt the case but it is lmao


I have over 400 combined hours in both SC and NMS, and while I can't speak for elite, the other two are entirely accurate. Personal experience, I've enjoyed NMS as a solo player MUCH more than SC. But with friends SC has NMS beat for me. What else, NMS has insane amounts of content and SC barely has anything at this point. It's like comparing a mall to a parking garage. Sure you can [film a great scene](https://youtu.be/hFIqWhsJptI) in a parking garage but which would you rather spend a day in? SC, when it works, is more immersive. Being able to physically walk around your ship, flight mechanics are insane and each ship feels truly unique to fly. Although I'm talking about vanilla NMS as I have never played it in VR. Most of all look at how NMS churns out content. I can barely believe how supported this game is! Update after update, new and amazing features and things to do. SC is still getting its core tech in place. It's an incredible foundation with an incredible future... If it ever gets there. (Also, please don't be mean, I'm high af and am writing this like I'm thinking aloud to myself more than anything)


The multiplayer in NMS is kind of shit. All the community features exist outside of the game.


My friends and I were so hopeful jumping into NMS, and then we found out that we couldn't have a shared base and one of us would have to be the designated always online person to actually have the base. It was very annoying, now if they added in some kind of clan bases or something we would jump back in most likely. Although the one guy is now deep into Burning Crusade so...


This is quite true. While SC doesn't have bases (yet™), at least you have multi-crew ships that can deploy ground vehicles so you and your friends can get around to some hijinks. I think the best gameplay loop in SC revolves around the law and prison system. You and your friends can do some illegal shit (mostly to each other lmao) and all get crime stats. Then get a drop ship and raid a security post space station to hack a terminal and get your crime stat removed. That's always a blast because by now you have real player bounty hunters after you by this point who can raid the post at any time so one person has to stay out in the ship while the rest of you take turns keeping your guns trained at the various airlocks while one guy waits to write off his crime as "mental incompetence". Maybe you all get in and out without being noticed. Maybe everything goes to shit and you all wake up in prison (there's an escape loop too which is a whole different story). Maybe *some* of you end up in prison. Now you gotta decide whether you all want to risk getting into deeper shit by trying to break them out. It's hours of solid fun with a good crew.


I already submitted the suggestion for guilds/clans and bases. The more people who suggest it, the more it might get taken seriously.


We REALLY need a LFG tool.


I can speak for Elite (500+ hours). OP is dead on.


I was so glad I left before Frontier fucked up the space legs. We alllll knew it was going to happen.


I enjoyed elite more prior to all the disappointing dlc


Damn. ¿how amazing is wheee in vr?


All the amazing. I only play in VR. All. All the amazing.


As someone who enjoys all 3 regardless, this is very accurate


NMS is what I want to play right now SC is the most methodical and feels like it has the most long-term potential. ED has been a complete disappointment, and feels like it will never progress past being a rehash of Elite, and Elite 2.


Elite dangerous and no mans sky both have good parts and bad parts. The hood parts of elite dangerous are the flight mechanics, giving different ways to pilot ships and also having to manage supplies, such as fuel, limpets and weapons, and the bad bits are the planets. The good bits of no mans sky are the large procedurally generated worlds that you can explore all of. The bad bit is the combat and flight, which do not offer much of a challenge.


And that is why NMS really needs a new update to improve gunplay and ship combat. Not just from a gameplay perspective, but from a chore perspective, we need new enemies, enemies that can give us a hard time in late game, because as it is right now, the only dangerous enemies are the biological horrors, which can't really hurt you if you don't care about eggs so... Improving the gunplay is easier, because most of the content is done outside of your ship. But the ship... there are pirates, the sentinels and... that's it. No other activities on space. They would need to implement a lot more content, otherwise, improving the gameplay of ships is useless.


Also let us blow up sentinel freighters. That would honestly keep me occupied for weeks


If elite dangerous would have not added pointless walking around in the spaceship game and instead added more levels of permanence players could involve themselves in it probably would have made a much better impact. People wanting to walk around was just people saying they're tired of playing elite dangerous.


These images aren't contemporary with each other, so the comparison isn't a very good one. That said, NMS is a very pretty game, still and in action.


i wish they would at least use a pic from like this year at least for SC. That pic looks like it was taken way back from when i first joined like 5 -6 years ago.


Lord knows we can find modern headless screenshots


Literally not a single thing in the SC screenshot is representative of the current state of the game. Old aurora model. Old hangar model. Old spacesuit model. Old bug. And the funny thing is it's not like it's hard to find an equally hilarious bug in 3.13.


Wait, you can ride the flying worms!? I have 100h+ and did not know this


Next update, I just saw the trailer for it yesterday.


From my August, 2016 review on Steam: ''This is not a $15 indie game. I've played those games, from Empyrion to Evochron, Starmade to Starbound and I like them for different reasons. Those are $15 experiences and can't be honestly compared to a game like No Man's Sky that on launch day became the most sophisticated procgen space sim available. While other games will feel barren (Elite: Dangerous, for example), NMS feels literally full of life...'' It's unbelievable how little those other games have accomplished without any of the backlash NMS had to deal with. Except maybe Empyrion which deserves some credit for adding so much on an indie budget.


To be fair, all of them are very different games. They’re only similar on the surface level of big open world (galaxy?) space games.




There’s starbase too


Starbase: Help, we need money




The only thing missing from NMS is being able to walk around the little livable spaces in your transport ships. Cozy places are the best. Oh, not everyone is thinking of that? Just me?


Wheeeeeeee, indeed!


The star citizen subreddit is amazing. Those people are so deep in denial, it's all they talk about.


People like you said the same thing about people in this sub when NMS came out.


Hey, at least NMS came out.


And then took several years to become decent. A lot of the systems are pretty baked in now, I would've preferred if they had worked on it more before release than patch it into reality.


To be fair nms also wasn't a crowd funding campaign for their game that got pushed back for years and years though. Totally different situations


Exactly, if the people in this sub are around when the game first launched they wouldn't be talking out if their ass like this. If they were around then that's some hypocritical thinking and fanboyism.


It isn't fanboyism to be won over by actual deeds. That's the very process called 'redemption'.


Next time they do a Free Fly, create an account, give it a look. If you don't experience it, then you can't know for sure if any of them are in denial or not.


They just had one, and I did. It looks pretty. If they focused more on bug smashing and fleshing out the actual core gameplay (like the most basic UI!) instead of focusing their efforts on new features, it might actually be a game.