Forceful vaccine messages can backfire with holdouts

Forceful vaccine messages can backfire with holdouts


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If you get hospitalized your wife gets your cellphone.


If you don't get vaccinated we are giving your job to an asylum seeker.


Can I clear my browser history first?


That defeats the purpose of giving to your wife. Your wife gets your secret porn history and whatever other crazy stuff you have. If your survive the covid, you may not survive the aftermath.


This reads like a shitty Logic song or something


This is the way


You can only shame people into changing their behavior if they already believe that their behavior is wrong and you can use shame to force them to confront their own hypocrisy. You cannot shame people who believe they’re right and you’re the one who’s crazy and/or evil. Trying to shame or otherwise pressure them just confirms their suspicions about you, in their mind.


Then there’s nothing that can be done


These people tend to respond to mandates - i.e., you will lose your job if you don’t get vaccinated.


I follow the numbers daily. The vaccination rate doesn't support people quitting their jobs in lieu of getting vaccinated. I believe the reports that say many people are getting vaxxed in secret.


I've seen the mandates work in my own family. They grumbled and complained, but they got the vaccine when they had to choose between it and their job.


Yeah coercion is very effective.


Or they take themselves out of larger society and settle in small pockets or backwaters with like minded folks.


Around here we call that Idaho.


Funny Idaho hospitals are sending Covid patients to larger-society Washington because they run out of capacity, instead of hospitals in like-minded states.


..Where the new, vaccine resistant strain will be born. From there it will spread and then we have to do the last 20 months all over again. This is why we can't 'leave them alone'. One wild game butcher in China spawned a worldwide pandemic. Next time it'll be an antivaxxer.


Thing is you can easily make up something to get medical or religious exemptions. This is what ticks me off. People in the medical field not believing in science and believing in conspiracies still get to make decisions about patient care. I know for a fact people make this shit up because the medical exemptions clearly state you're exempt ONLY if you had a reaction to the covid vaccine, no other vaccine. So how is it these antivaxxers are somehow getting a doc's consent if they never had a vaccine before?


Well, COVID is gonna do its thing on the unvaxxed.


And then they’ll fill up the hospitals and innocent people will die as a result because they won’t be able to get treatment.


Untrue. Send them to Texas.


We can just dart em’.


I'd have a dart.


Yep. They're kinda irredeemable. The scary part is how many irredeemable people are out there.


It's a deplorable situation, really.


Unfortunately this basket of the population are dragging us all down.


Not true at all, as the article lays out. There are lots of ways of convincing people, it's just a case of delivering the message in a palatable way.


I’m well past that point my dude. There’s only so many times I can have an antivaxxer act like the smart one for thinking that vaccines have microchips before I’m no longer willing to entertain the bullshit. I’ve been exposed to COVID too much over the past 18 goddamn months to have sympathy for the willfully ignorant




I think a lot of hesitant folk are still specifically worried about the fact that the vaccines are new. Distrust of "big pharma" is real. A focus on safety, how many people have been vaccinated (nearing half of humanity), how data is being gathered on a global scale, how this has helped them formulate treatments for the few serious side-effects should they occur (myocarditis, clotting, etc), and so on might help too.


Then the responsible thing to do is shut up and let the communication experts do their job. Sabotaging their work with your anti-anti-vax temper tantrums is pretty irresponsible.




Unfortunately for them, a virus doesn't care about their worldview. It'll still kill them regardless of how they personally feel.


This. They don't believe they are wrong, even when proven wrong over and over again.


Allowing facts to dash against their zealous beliefs makes them feel strong. They're copying confident role models (Alex Jones etc) in a time of uncertainty, trying to also appear strong to their peers. They're playing a social game which facts bear no relevance to.


Yea the anti-vaxxers/maskers aren’t reachable. So I just say if a job wants to let someone go because that person wants to risk his/her co-workers safety (by not vaccinating and not wearing a mask on top of that), then hey…have fun looking for a new job Mr/Mrs Anti-Vax/Mask! 👋🏾


It's not about shame, they're afraid. Just afraid of the wrong things.


That’s why I disagree with this article. I think a fear-based campaign showing the realities of unvaccinated hospitalization death financial ruin should be made highly visible to hold outs.I don’t really care if they feel offended or scared, I want them to feel so uncomfortable they don’t have a choice, because we don’t.


At what point can we just hold 'em down and stick 'em with the vaccine like livestock? Because they're already happy to take horse dewormer.




Get a load of this guy, sheesh! Pyschotic, absolutely seriously, just get in line like the rest of us and wait for natural selection to do it's thing.


Just tell them we are going to give their vaccines to another country and it may be several months before they have another chance. Or tell then we are giving them to undocumented immigrants so they can wait in America while their case is being decided.


Pretty sure if people had any intention of getting one they would’ve gotten one by now.


People are weird, and predictable. Tell em in 2 months the US will not order anymore vaccine and anyone who wants one needs to get it now. You'll see a lot finally flock to it.


Tell them they're giving their vaccines and jobs to Mexicans. That'll make them storm the hospitals to get vaccinated.


That's exactly what's happening with some nurses. Some hospitals are going to import them from the Philippines. Patients get vaccinated nurses. The hospital gets more reliable and cheaper employees. Families in the third world get more money. Most people win. I guess the fired nurses can immigrate to get lower paying jobs. Sounds like they're the only losers here.


They'll just complain that Biden is wasting their tax dollars on mexicans. EVERYTHING is paid for with their tax dollars, or didn't you know?


How about they will have to pay for the vaccine starting 1st Dec. It is a privilege, not a punishment.


sooner. Oct. 1


People who worship "you can't tell me what to do!" refused to do what they are told: surprise, surprise.


Unless it's what "a certain TV network" or their Facefuck group tells them to do, then they trip over themselves to see who can be the most compliant.


Nothing is getting through to the “holdouts” at this point, so I don’t think “forceful messages” do anything other than give them something to clutch their pearls about.


HCA’s posts by the recently vaccinated might restore some hope for people


Show me?


Linking directly to the sub got removed. google " 🎉 IPA (Immunized to Prevent Award)🎉 "


The author writes “be less threatening, such as: "If you floss already, keep up the good work. And if you haven't been flossing, now might be a good time to start." And "Flossing: It's easy. Why not give it a try?" They found that the participants' reactance was significantly lower and their message acceptance higher.” Seriously? Have you seen any anti-flossers in the streets? Are there any celebrity anti-flossers?


Ask your dentist how many of their patients regularly floss. For many, it's too much of a chore... until their first or second root canal. I guess the more threatening approach would be something like, "You absolutely have to floss or you'll start losing teeth." Dentists found that they had better results in getting those who were resistant to flossing to start with a less aggressive approach.


RDH here, people are rabid about conspiracy theories about fluoride, root canals, fillings, braces, and wisdom teeth. They also resist actual flossing (did the study track actual compliance, because people lie about flossing all the time), and yes, we have already been trying all the different, softer approaches. There is no one solution for getting people to floss and some would literally rather lose all their teeth and then blame you. If anyone had asked hygienists, we coulda predicted all this. Occasionally, you get somebody who accuses you of working for big floss or something. My response is ‘I literally get paid the same whether you floss or not (and hygienists rather enjoy doing scaling and root planing on really neglected mouths, it is kinda fun in a gross way, like cleaning a really dirty household item can be). I’m not going to lose sleep over your decision, but you should care for your own sake.’ But, their lack of flossing doesn’t affect me. When they insist on doing something that can affect me (like wriggling around like mad or grabbing my hands when I have something sharp), they get told not to do it again or they will be dismissed from the practice. Vaccination is a thing that affects us all.


i actually had a dentist tell me flossong wasn't necessary. needless to say i have a new dentist.


I was curious so I looked this up, it's apparently a pretty contentious thing now. Flossing daily might not be as important as we once thought, at least for adults anyways. If anything it may be a 'well it couldn't hurt' scenario but it doesn't seem to be critical to healthy teeth as long as you're taking care of them otherwise. [https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140527-does-flossing-protect-your-teeth](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140527-does-flossing-protect-your-teeth) [https://www.webmd.com/oral-health/features/to-floss-or-not-to-floss](https://www.webmd.com/oral-health/features/to-floss-or-not-to-floss)


Note that the general feeling in the dental community is that it is hard to probe flossing works because the ‘flossing’ subjects in the study are lying about their flossing. Flossing studies in kids (who are flossed by a pro in school) tend to show benefit.


Big Floss! Take my upvote and hide before Big Floss finds you.


No billionaires lose money if they can't convince people to vote for their tax breaks based on flossing outrage.


"If you've vaccinated already, keep up the good work. And if you haven't vaccinated, now might be a good time to start. " "Vaccinating: It's easy. Why not give it a try?" Am I doing this right?


And, of course, after paragraphs of saying, "Don't be so astringent; use soft, suggestive messaging, like in this study about flossing," the author... doesn't include an example of how to tailor that messaging for COVID. Because, y'know, everyone reading this article and needing to convince a holdout can just Don Draper up an amazing soft-sell of a slogan.


the article is less about individuals convincing other individuals, and more about how larger organizations (i.e. local governments, health organizations, hospitals, etc.) can craft a public campaign to set effectively reach these holdouts. Such campaigns do have Don Drapers at their disposal.


> “be less threatening, such as: "If you floss already, keep up the good work. And if you haven't been flossing, now might be a good time to start." And "Flossing: It's easy. Why not give it a try?" They found that the participants' reactance was significantly lower and their message acceptance higher.” Honestly if you need to be treated like a spoiled child to avoid dying... that's on you lol.


This is such a dumb article. These people have already decided that they won’t take it. Being nice to them isn’t going to change that fact.


If most were not going to comply,is it really backfiring?


I’m personally sick of having to cater to crazy/stupid


Exactly. They are being allowed to hold the rest of the population hostage right now and are causing overcrowded hospitals and deaths. How much longer are the rest of us to be forced to put up with it? I don't care how they feel-they are hurting people.


The 'fuck your feels' crowd sure is butt hurt over vaccines.


They’re butt hurt over literally everything.


They are causing damage. Indeed. My wife and I have both had medical procedures postponed because of this. It’s crazy. It’s selfish.


I was referred to physical therapy after giving birth because of painful nerve damage, but it got postponed. My son will be two in a couple months. Good thing it got better without that therapy lol


I hear you. I have had to postpone something too. Not life threatening if I'm careful, but very uncomfortable. People who are unreasonable are being permitted control of the situation. We constantly read of their tantrums when they have to modify their behavior in the slightest way. This has got to give. The rest of us should not have to live like this indefinitely.


They have the pandemic worse and harder every step of the way. Hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths can be linked to those with the Anti-vaxx mentality.


Being nice and gently explaining how vaccines make you not die didn't do shit to make them get vaccinated, so I'm done being nice about it. Vaccine mandates seem to be working, so I don't care if anti-vaxxers think it's mean.


These people think being asked to wear a mask is on par with the holocaust. I couldn't care less if they think it's tyranny. Force the fucking vaccine on them or tell them to go elsewhere/don't allow them to go anywhere in public and certainly tell them they can no longer use hospitals or see doctors. It's a matter of public health, not individual idiocy


yep, what is the next crazy thing they'll need to be coddled for?


That Jan 6th wasn’t an insurrection


Not all the hold outs are crazy and stupid though, and this attitude that they all are is harmful. I mean, in the beginning I was advised by my doctor to hold off getting the vaccine due to my occupation, a history of bad vaccine reactions, and because at the time he didnt feel there was enough research... I eventually got the vaccine, but there was a 3-4 month period where I just avoided the topic so I could avoid dealing with aggressive "pro-vaxxers." I seriously had people straight up accuse me of lying and tell me all sorts of nasty things about myself based only off of my vaccine status during that time... not that I give a flying fuck, I got the shot when my doctor told me he believed I should. I can totally understand why some people might encounter that cultish aggression and end up not getting the vaccine that they might have gotten otherwise. I still blame it all on Trump... hes gone now, but the division and polarization he left in his wake is honestly scary, its like there's no way to reconcile.


Dude he is still front and center in the GOP, “he’s gone now” lol you’re in for a fuckin surprise


>He's gone now Yeah, he's not gone. He just held a big rally in Georgia last night. He's gone from most mainstream news, which has been nice.... But he's still stoking the fire with his base.


Yeah, that's true... but imo some of the "aggressive progressive" shit were seeing now is adding fuel to that fire. I'm honestly surprised I didnt return to reddit to find 1k downvotes and a bunch of aggressive replies to my first comment lol


>I'm honestly surprised I didnt return to reddit to find 1k downvotes and a bunch of aggressive replies to my first comment lol A few days ago I posted about a co-worker with a heart defect that may not be able to survive covid or the vaccine. I was trying to defend the 0.6% of NYC teachers who got a medical exception to their mandate. I received upvotes for that story. I think most of us on here are well aware that there are certain folks who are medically not good candidates for the vaccine....which is why we're trying to max out vaccines among the healthy and achieve herd immunity. We hate folks pretending to have a medical reason...(and "religious" exemptions).


Well, I've definitely caught some of that negative energy... and I've seen it go wild elsewhere. I had two co-workers trading insults last week over this (last friday was our mandate deadline). The conversation went from the one guy being on the fence about getting his first shot, to being in a shouting match. I dont know what he decided in the end, but I don't think our other co-worker insulting him helped convince him of anything good.


> Not all the hold outs are crazy and stupid though, and this attitude that they all are is harmful. True, but you end up in the same hospital as the horse paste people.




Was there now? ... and exactly how much research was available on that day that I never specified? Specifically research that would involve someone like myself who had a cardiac reaction to a vaccine in the past? You must be so smart lmao




Right on lmao... I seriously cant imagine the ego that it would take to reply with this thinking it sounds smart, but your username checks with it. My doctor is a fucking amazing doctor, and he literally explained to me exactly how much research is normally done and for how long, and how much research had been done at that time. In his opinion the research was very good for 99% of people, but at that time there was simply not enough to recommend it to someone who was pregnant (this changed a few months later as new data emerged), someone who had certain cardiac conditions that had caused problems in testing, and someone like myself who once had a cardiac event after receiving a vaccine. You should just quit now and change your username to "turdofwonder" lol










Unfortunately it may be on its way already. Such a sad indictment of human intelligence if we can’t avoid catastrophe with a proven solution.


There's the not trivial matter of getting a vaccine into every arm globally. I don't think we're doing the debate about the best way forward any service by needlessly simplifying the problem and acting like vaccine hesitancy in first world countries is what's driving the pandemic globally.


Good point. That is not discussed enough on social media.






At this juncture, with all the science data behind vaccine efficacy and almost non-existent side effects, the holdouts are in fact squarely inside the stupid camp. They’re also keeping this pandemic going and endangering others, so you will excuse the rest of us if our empathy and understanding are all spent.


Agree. Someone who disagrees with objective reality and science is crazy/stupid.


No but in this case it is crazy/stupid


This is not a disagreement. One side is 100% wrong. It's not about opinions it's about facts.


This isn’t about “agreeing” or “disagreeing”. Antivaxers are objectively wrong.


I 100% agree with you. I don't think you should get the vaccine if you haven't already. Just you, specifically.




I'm not disappointed at all. You got corona and got vaxxed? Or just got corona and therefore have the immunity?




It becomes unreasonable and stupid when more evidence points to it’s efficacy and safety than to it’s possible side effects. At this point there are approved vaccines, plenty of studies, and millions of people vaccinated.


Do I blame unvaccinated people for keeping us stuck in neutral? Yes. Why? Because they refuse to be vaccinated. I’m the first to admit that I am not better not smarter than anyone, but when data backs upsetting vaccinated and trusting the medical community I get frustrated. What are the reasons that people refuse to get vaccinated? It’s not that bad and I don’t know what’s in it. What has carnauba wax and powdered cellulose? Aspirin, how many of these people know that or don’t know that but still take aspirin? Being very selective about what they chose to put in their bodies is okay, applying it only to the vaccine is where I start to get frustrated.


One of the best examples I've heard is when talking to an anti-vaxxer who told me he won't get the covid vaccine because he doesn't know what's in it and he doesn't want to put anything harmful in his body. He said this while holding his cigarette and smoking. When I pointed this out to him, he refused to admit any issue.






This is not true. Look at Portugal, Norway.


> There are countries where the vast majority of people are vaccinated. Their corona virus rates are the same or even worse as prevaccine times. This is objectively false. Here is a list of the most vaccinated countres: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html Sort by "fully vaccinated" [Portugal](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/portugal/), very few deaths over the last few months. [Malta](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/malta), 10% of their total deaths in the last 5 months [UAE](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/united-arab-emirates/), chart speaks for itself [Singapore](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) might be an exception but they have **13** deaths per million over the entire pandemic. The last four months for them are equivalent to *one day* here in the US. [Qatar](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/qatar), [Spain](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain), [Iceland](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iceland). The trend is clear. Countries which actually have *the vast majority* vaccinated are doing great. You might be thinking Israel, which is everyone's favorite anti-vax propaganda these days. 62% is not nearly enough for herd immunity vs Delta, which has a herd immunity threshold of 85% or so. Even so, the *vast majority* of deaths there are among the unvaxxed. Waning immunity is a red herring - the vax still stops almost all deaths after several months, and there are not many vaccine protocols which end after 2 shots. Polio takes 4, for example.


it’s true we’re not expecting COVID to go away, but we are expecting it to become endemic and not to result in “a disproportionate amount of people dying” so the unvaccinated are absolutely holding us back from the primary goal.


Correct. This is not one of those times though, through willful ignorance and refusing to change their minds they are being stupid. Did you know cars have sulfuric acid in them? I would argue that that is more dangerous than a vaccine type (mRNA) that has been in development for a couple of decades, but which COVID pushed over the hump in terms of getting it widely available. I see a lot of people driving in cars though.


Did taking the nice, soft approach work? I guess my confusion is that these people had months to get vaccinated. If they saw family members get covid and die, and still not get vaccinated, what are the chances they are going to have a change of heart? You can't allow extremists to set public health policy.


It’s like how I didn’t want to watch the Wire because people kept telling me it was so great. The difference is that not watching the Wire won’t endanger my life or the life of others.


Omar Coming!


The wire is really good but it's pretty dark. I didn't watch until years after the hype die down for the same reason.


I heard The Wire with its dry, bleak humor was close to real Baltimore life, but I really felt it when Covid started. Authorities were worried there wouldn't be enough hospital beds (hey, just like now), and the Baltimore mayor asked residents to please stop shooting each other. https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2020/03/18/we-need-those-beds-baltimore-mayor-urges-people-to-put-down-guns-after-violence-continues-during-covid-19-pandemic/


It’s not too soon to watch The Wire. It’s great.


Season 5 still trash tho.


Ultimate failson prezbelewski


I have a hard time watching anything not in at least 1080p now anyway…


It's in 1080p...


Wow. I had no idea they remastered it. It wasn’t originally.


Well yea, cos it was broadcast before HD TV or HD home media existed lol. The Blu-rays were released 6 years ago


>On Sept. 9, President Joe Biden announced sweeping vaccine mandates, expressing frustration at the vaccine holdouts: "We've been patient, but our patience is wearing thin. And your refusal has cost all of us." As a communication scientist who has studied the effects of media and health campaigns for the past 30 years, I worry that a fevered pitch in vaccine messaging may make the holdouts even more resistant. The direct, blunt messages to go get vaccinated that worked on three-quarters of Americans may not work for the remaining one-quarter. If anything, they might backfire. How many people have to die so we can coddle anti-vaxxers long enough for them to change their minds? These people aren't just defying authority, they have been indoctrinated by false information. Deprograming them, if it can be done at all, is going to take years or a personal life altering event (besides covid). And the bottom line, many of them do not care if their actions cause deaths.


Even getting COVID or knowing someone who has died from it doesn’t seem to change everyone’s mind


Someone I know turned into an anti-vcxx covid downplayer because they didn't want to accept the fact that a friend of ours had died from it. Because they had been visiting him in the hospital without wearing a mask. Accepting that would have been admitting they could have given it to him. They refused to even get tested after they had definite exposure to it.


Good God! That's just...awful. Has this acquaintance ever shown any other signs of mental illness? This is some major league delusion on her/his part.


Very true. I thought when covid started killing kids it would make them stop, but no, not even that is affecting them. I think I felt despair when I saw that Texas nurse a few weeks ago whose 13 y/o died overnight from covid. Even after her own son died, she is still an anti-vaxxer though she might be more open-minded toward masks. Such people don't deserve to have children.


This is true, seen this first hand. The hospitals turning away non-COVID patients isn’t even enough. I say put them in a tent outside of the hospital and give them low level treatment. Their lack of compassion for other people is forcing me to have lack of compassion for them.


At this point, they're sharing instructions on how to get their loved ones released into hospice care because they're convinced that the hospitals are killing them by putting them on vents instead of prescribing them you-know-what. So I say we just start releasing folks AMA the *second* they push back against standard medical treatment and watch the ICUs empty out as people self-triage. If we need to shield medical providers from legal liability for letting grown-ass adults make a poor decision, make it happen.


Read the nursing sub. A bunch of them are walking around with against medical advice papers on them now. So when these morons threaten to leave, they whip out the paper and go let me know when it’s signed.




Well we've tried being gentle and using the carrot for months now. It's time to introduce them to the stick.


Just tell them you're glad they- specifically just them -aren't getting the vaccine. Completely confuses and upsets them. If they ask why, just say you're agreeing with them. For example: "I'd also rather you didn't. Only people that want it should be allowed to get it."


Once children < 6yrs of age can be vaccinated; this game ends for antivaxers, with their hospitalizations and deaths, earning their HCA.


Holdouts for two years? F em


They're clearly dedicated to be obstinate and childish, not my job to cater to them.


well, technically one year... but yeh...


Yes but they were also anti-maskers, no shut down, covid is like the flu people too.


In the U.S. the lockdowns that marked the start of the pandemic didn't begin until March. It's only been 18 months. I was seeing it reported in international news last December and stocked up in January. Will never forget how many of my friends and family thought it was silly, until the schools didn't reopen at the end of spring break. I still have family that insists COVID is literally the flu. I cannot figure out how to connect the reality of this situation to them, but I keep trying. This TED talk from 2009 has been very educational, accurate, and estimated 24 months until the true end of a pandemic. We're almost there, vaccines or not. https://www.ted.com/talks/laurie_garrett_lessons_from_the_1918_flu/up-next


The stupidity didn’t start with the vaccine. Covid19 has been around for nearing 2 years now... and remember, the same “it’s just the flu” mindset has existed since pretty much day 1 :-/


Bottom line is a hard line. All these dummies are all bluster and bullshit until their wallet is hit. We have significant evidence now that they talk a big game but largely won't walk away from a paying job (of course handouts on welfare for them would be ok because go freedom etc). Call their bluff and stop pandering idiocy.


Patience and logic has reached its threshold with these people. Nothing you say works, no amount of research, etc.


Shrug. Enjoy not being able to do anything in society, that's the direction this is going, assuming they survive covid.


Nope its simple, employers and schools require and no exceptions, it doesn't matter what god you worship. Its what we did with polio and it worked. Anyone doesn't like it, they don't work or go to school. Its simple, fuck thier feelings.


no shit




I’m sure it will backfire with people who we have no reasonable hope of ever taking a vaccine, because we have no reasonable hope that they will ever be able to admit they were wrong about this. It will, however, push plenty of sitters off the fence. People who have been “waiting and seeing” so far. Anyone suggesting we water down the efforts towards the latter in order to cater to the former is unhelpful and wrong.


Anyone who’s still “on the fence” this far into this is an anti-vaxxer who’s trying to pretend they aren’t.


At this point who cares. Just make it mandatory.


I’m through giving fucks for these people.


Humans are cranky toddlers that rarely develop enough brain power or reasoning skills to counteract that fact.


Third stimulus only for the vaxxed. They really going to turn down a grand?


Just start telling these people that they can’t have the vaccines anyway and see how many cry that it’s not fair and decide they want it.


Actually, that might work for some people. I also don't think the government should lie or bluff or play chicken with them.


You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into. Having tried and tried with anti-vaxxers, what has become crystal clear is that their position has nothing to do with facts, logic, or reason. So none of those will work to change their minds.


It ALL backfires with these idiots. The only way with these types is to make not having it insanely inconvenient and expensive


Those assholes were never going to get it. They prefer horse dewormer.


At this point, we should be thinking long term: about the next pandemic. First shots should no longer be free. Create some FOMO for the next time.


I say push harder. This is just another excuse. They'll claim natural immunity is better, that the vaxed can catch and spread, that myocarditis is a bigger threat for at least some demographics, that we could increase ICU capacity to that of years past, that if you don't have a comorbidity like obesity, which you can't control as easy as a global virus, and now this, that it's their body their choice. We need to apply more force!


But… every single one of those statements is objectively true, with the exception of possibly the last one which I had an admittedly difficult time parsing.


Are you saying we shouldn't have vax mandates?


I’m curious how this will go at my employer. Without getting specific, my company operates a facility, we have a client that operates the specialized equipment and finds the work that needs to be done for other clients. Just a few weeks ago our client emailed their employees to tell them “We don’t have a mandate, but here is a list of all our clients that do have mandates.” They just informed all of them that now they have a mandate effective 11/1. My direct employer has no mandate but I expect them to say at a minimum, we don’t have a mandate but here is a list of clients that do. Which will basically be all of them.


Honestly, they’re not going to get vaccinated by choice no matter what sort of information you give them. The brainwashing is too thorough. It *has* to be done by force.


Who cares? If you're so dumb you CHOOSE getting really sick and maybe dying, that's your own fault. I don't understand all the self-flagellation among (authoritative) public health people, they've done a good job.


But they want to a better job, they are the opposite of these people, selfless


Genuine question I haven't found the subreddit to ask in yet; why doesn't the U.S. government incentivize vaccination with some kind of promise to cover the healthcare costs of adverse reactions to the vaccine and breakthrough cases that require hospitalization? Both circumstances occur so rarely that it shouldn't be a financial burden to allocate funding to the ~5%-13% of people the vaccine isn't guaranteed to be effective for (Pfizer has an 87%-95% efficacy rate I believe), and the even smaller percentage of people who may suffer potential adverse reactions. I know we have a payout program for the latter group, but studies researching how many people actually receive money from the program are dismally small (something like 30 in 150-200 cases). Considering how many people are vaccine hesitant because they want more studies to be done on the potential side effects of the vaccines before they take them, and considering the fact that while the vaccine is free, the treatment for an adverse reaction most certainly is not, I believe we could get vaccination up to at least 90% if we could guarantee free or reduced cost healthcare treatment to anyone who suffers an adverse reaction, as well as anyone who requires hospitalization because of a breakthrough case. After all, if you're running the risk of contracting COVID and being hospitalized anyways, I'm sure plenty of people would be willing to take the vaccine if it means the government would foot the bill for hospitalization rather than have to pay for their own treatment. I just feel like so many people are on the fence because they don't want to put themselves in the hospital and pay exorbitant healthcare bills for taking the vaccine if they have an adverse reaction to it, so they're avoiding it because they don't feel confident it wouldn't happen to them. The reassurance of knowing their doctor visits and hospitalization would be covered is a BIG incentive that would ease a lot of their concerns. Even if we don't get through to enough people with that guarantee, the promise of covering healthcare costs for contracting COVID and requiring hospitalization after being vaccinated would financially incentivize even more holdouts because they know they're running the risk of getting sick and being hospitalized anyways, so having a string attached to free healthcare would seem very appealing. Thoughts?


That’ll never happen, too close to M4A which can’t be tolerated in the least. The rate stayed to rise with the full FDA approval, maybe if the J&J is approved it will rise again. I think too many people are stuck in the political side of it not the scientific side of it.


I was at the grocery store tonight. There was a family ahead of me, one of the kids was a seven year old. He looked awful and was coughing a lot. I don’t know if the kid had Covid and he can’t get vaccinated but I wish the adults would do more to protect kids like this.


Spoiler alert: there’s really nothing other than reverse psychology that works. It’s like dealing with toddlers.




These hold outs are s selfish


Tell antivaxxers that vaccine priority is for undocumented immigrants, blacks, jews, mexicans and gays. I bet same day all of them will be in the line to get their shots then.




¿Por que no los dos? There is definitely a significant overlap on the Venn Diagram of racists and antivaxxers.


We've tried the nice approach. Force is all that's left


Carmen sandiego ?!


Who cares, let them land on HCA


Make cell phone service only for vaccinated people. People have to prove they have been vaccinated to have a legal cell phone.


Coronavirus doesn't give a single fuck about their feelings. And neither do I. I hope, companies stop caring about their feelings too.


For lack of a career, church, or charitable/community cause to attach to they firmly attached to this new belief system and behavior and prioritize social media "cred" that goes with it.


Nothing is mandatory, fuck mandatory


The carrot or the stick. Carrot not working. Time for the stick.


Ditto with asking nicely.


No shit eh? A ton of dead people won’t get em either.